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Post by nemolives on Jan 29, 2016 0:48:45 GMT
It's just occurred to me again, wasn't the content being put on hold for "Polishing" now? But if they're not polishing because they're getting ready to go into Early Access... what exactly are they up too these days? My head hurts, and my heart is broken. Oh, and $120 million to own a castle, with extremely high rent... mmm yes, there's that little small print I was expecting for the Single Player decency.
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Post by fossil on Jan 29, 2016 0:57:41 GMT
It's just occurred to me again, wasn't the content being put on hold for "Polishing" now? But if they're not polishing because they're getting ready to go into Early Access... what exactly are they up too these days? My head hurts, and my heart is broken. Oh, and $120 million to own a castle, with extremely high rent... mmm yes, there's that little small print I was expecting for the Single Player decency. Bro if that doesnt say mod me I dunno what does?
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Post by khael on Jan 29, 2016 1:07:30 GMT
Thanks for the welcome, Caliya. I got tired of having to edit my posts on the official forums when it came time to talk about the game direction. This seems like a better environment for that. Welcome! yeah ya gotta walk on egg shells to be able to post anything on the shroud forums.
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calico
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Post by calico on Jan 29, 2016 3:05:20 GMT
Starting to look like a lone fight over there. What is with the defense force though?
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Jan 29, 2016 3:45:36 GMT
It's this ownership that causes the defense. Because players like Drocis have funded at such a high level and the developers have positioned themselves as developing with the community, there is a level of ownership they feel they have in the game.
And that's kind of cool, no? At least in theory, a community having a developer create a game for them seems great.
But the community has changed with the haphazard development outline. Things like PoTs have shifted the participating audience to a few extremely invested individuals who see this as the game 'we' are making, not a game being made for the 55,000 backers.
These heavily invested individuals feel as much owners of the game as the development team. Their opinions of the game are no longer on the game, its on their game. Criticisms a quashed because of their substantial investment they have put into the game they feel they're making.
Rogue voices like Tek and Rune in that thread aren't critiquing the game Port is making, as far as folks like Drocis are concerned. Tek and Rune are critiquing a game he and many others feel they are making.
They take pride in it and I can't blame them. Port allowed this sort of circumstance by identifying that they had whales and capitalizing on them, drawing people in for tens of thousands of dollars and telling them they were the voices that would shape the game, their most loyal backers who would receive exclusive information first.
They problem is, all this investment makes the community particularly defensive about criticism. This is the reason a pod has formed, why defenses go up, why they man the battlestations. It's why fewer and fewer people speak up and it only ensures that future criticisms are less frequent and it makes a community driven development idea a disaster when the open involvement is with an insular group begins to dictate the direction of a project.
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calico
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Post by calico on Jan 29, 2016 4:25:45 GMT
It's this ownership that causes the defense. Because players like Drocis have funded at such a high level and the developers have positioned themselves as developing with the community, there is a level of ownership they feel they have in the game. And that's kind of cool, no? At least in theory, a community having a developer create a game for them seems great. But the community has changed with the haphazard development outline. Things like PoTs have shifted the participating audience to a few extremely invested individuals who see this as the game 'we' are making, not a game being made for the 55,000 backers. These heavily invested individuals feel as much owners of the game as the development team. Their opinions of the game are no longer on the game, its on their game. Criticisms a quashed because of their substantial investment they have put into the game they feel they're making. Rogue voices like Tek and Rune in that thread aren't critiquing the game Port is making, as far as folks like Drocis are concerned. Tek and Rune are critiquing a game he and many others feel they are making. They take pride in it and I can't blame them. Port allowed this sort of circumstance by identifying that they had whales and capitalizing on them, drawing people in for tens of thousands of dollars and telling them they were the voices that would shape the game, their most loyal backers who would receive exclusive information first. They problem is, all this investment makes the community particularly defensive about criticism. This is the reason a pod has formed, why defenses go up, why they man the battlestations. It's why fewer and fewer people speak up and it only ensures that future criticisms are less frequent and it makes a community driven development idea a disaster when the open involvement is with an insular group begins to dictate the direction of a project. That was very well written.
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Caliya
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People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
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Post by Caliya on Jan 29, 2016 7:22:31 GMT
Yeah, and there's a bunch of back and forth between posters as well as quotes from DS and all bickering about whether it's launch or not. Semantic jousting. Because the game was perpetually in pre-alpha, it gave a "good" excuse to tell people to stop being so negative. Because after all, it was "only" pre-alpha. They couldn't let people's negativity or doubts get the best of them. They now can say, "but it still hasn't launched." When, in fact, it will be launched. I don't care what they decide to call it. Launch is launch. Call it a pink pig if you like, but we all know that pink pig has "Launch" written on its side. lol
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Caliya
Strong in the Force
People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121
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Post by Caliya on Jan 29, 2016 10:32:00 GMT
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Jan 29, 2016 10:33:36 GMT
Shadow said: ↑ As for the towns, I think some people are bitter because the cost of entry was too high and they resent it.
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Caliya
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People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
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Post by Caliya on Jan 29, 2016 10:34:30 GMT
Even though ESO went to F2P, and it wasn't a big draw to remain in the game (because there was no real system for wanting to stay in the game), they launched their game, and had "ongoing development" - just like so many games out there. "Ongoing development" is usually patches and DLCs. Not finishing a turd.
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Jan 29, 2016 14:44:44 GMT
I'm happy to see more people posting their dissatisfaction in the final wipe thread. Not because I want upheaval over there, but because the decision deserves to be examined critically and those criticisms voiced.
I actually don't see a considerable defense being mounted as most of the arguments in favor of the wipe are coming from Drocis. There are certainly posts expressing excitement over the wipe, but I don't see many arguing with the critics that they are wrong which is somewhat refreshing. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and I don't begrudge those that are happy with the decision.
State's reply to take is a perfect example of how the community emulates Port or vice versa.Tek did no such thing in his post, yet Starr does a good job here of branding one of their biggest backers and a former vocal supporter is branded a liar. If this is truly to be open development and the community shaping the game, you should be welcoming criticisms and explaining why things changed from what was talked about during that brainstorming session, not invalidating a perfectly understandable concern. Such is the way in SotA community relations.
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calico
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Post by calico on Jan 29, 2016 14:47:31 GMT
I'm happy to see more people posting their dissatisfaction in the final wipe thread. Not because I want upheaval over there, but because the decision deserves to be examined critically and those criticisms voiced. I actually don't see a considerable defense being mounted as most of the arguments in favor of the wipe are coming from Drocis. There are certainly posts expressing excitement over the wipe, but I don't see many arguing with the critics that they are wrong which is somewhat refreshing. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and I don't begrudge those that are happy with the decision. State's reply to take is a perfect example of how the community emulates Port or vice versa.Tek did no such thing in his post, yet Starr does a good job here of branding one of their biggest backers and a former vocal supporter is branded a liar. If this is truly to be open development and the community shaping the game, you should be welcoming criticisms and explaining why things changed from what was talked about during that brainstorming session, not invalidating a perfectly understandable concern. Such is the way in SotA community relations. Yes, I saw that too. Then Rune asked him afterwords well that what is the real story. No response.
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Jan 29, 2016 15:06:39 GMT
Tek did no such thing in his post, yet Starr does a good job here of branding one of their biggest backers and a former vocal supporter is branded a liar. In such a visible threat, that was a diplomatic faux-pas to be sure.
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Jan 29, 2016 15:07:02 GMT
Give it some time, have to run it through Dev+ first right?
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Post by fossil on Jan 29, 2016 16:09:10 GMT
How long till this puppy gets shut down?
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Post by zincturtle on Jan 29, 2016 16:27:12 GMT
Yeah, DS calling out TEK was a bad move. All TEK did was say "hey, this was different in the past, what changed?" and he got a happy birthday to the ground for his trouble.
I foresee less and less dev posting in the next 6 months before launch. (yes, pink pig launch!) Because they know a) it doesn't matter, why waste the time interacting now and b) the community will become more and more negative, calling them out on 'broken promises'. Which of course, they'll deny or ignore, and then there will be more silence.
Honestly, I don't see how they can heal this rift. There's more than a dozen posts in that 'final wipe' thread that say don't release until it's ready, but they're going with 1/3 being enough, and to hell with what the community thinks. Transparency? Helping to develop the game? PDF's of the design docs? All the kickstarter goals? That's all ancient history.
I did especially enjoy the outright avarice and entitlement shown by the whales, though. Tahru: " I paid 12k, so if I want to forfeit my castle for a row lot, that's my right. " That's gold, right there.
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Jan 29, 2016 16:43:58 GMT
"Have you ever in the history of gaming heard of a great game that no one plays because the final wipe was months before the official launch? I've never heard of anything like that."
Baron F
Yeah, Battlestar Galactica Online.
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calico
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Post by calico on Jan 29, 2016 16:51:20 GMT
Yeah, DS calling out TEK was a bad move. All TEK did was say "hey, this was different in the past, what changed?" and he got a happy birthday to the ground for his trouble. I foresee less and less dev posting in the next 6 months before launch. (yes, pink pig launch!) Because they know a) it doesn't matter, why waste the time interacting now and b) the community will become more and more negative, calling them out on 'broken promises'. Which of course, they'll deny or ignore, and then there will be more silence. Honestly, I don't see how they can heal this rift. There's more than a dozen posts in that 'final wipe' thread that say don't release until it's ready, but they're going with 1/3 being enough, and to hell with what the community thinks. Transparency? Helping to develop the game? PDF's of the design docs? All the kickstarter goals? That's all ancient history. I did especially enjoy the outright avarice and entitlement shown by the whales, though. Tahru: " I paid 12k, so if I want to forfeit my castle for a row lot, that's my right. " That's gold, right there. Money is the driver for power there. They even state in that thread that PoT's are now a major facet of the game. When did that happen?
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Post by zincturtle on Jan 29, 2016 16:53:05 GMT
Lots of games now, since... hm, well, at least since 2010, push beta databases to production/live. If they're confident in the product, it's not a huge risk, and allowed them to sell early access or "head start" of a few weeks. It was common practice in korean/asian games for much longer than north american, from what I remember. I don't particularly like the practice myself, but given the whole housing problem with sota, I don't think they have much choice.
BDF is poison, imo. Can't put it any other way. He needs to find a new hobby, as every interaction he has with the sota community and devs is purely negative. Definitely would NOT buy him a beer if I met him in person. I've seen community members (in other MMO's) like him before; "dev pets" we used to call them, and it never goes well. They obsess until they're disappointment overcomes their obsession, and then it's another vitriol filled weblog maintained for a few angst filled weeks, and then they move on to the next obsession and failure.
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calico
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Post by calico on Jan 29, 2016 16:59:13 GMT
Lots of games now, since... hm, well, at least since 2010, push beta databases to production/live. If they're confident in the product, it's not a huge risk, and allowed them to sell early access or "head start" of a few weeks. It was common practice in korean/asian games for much longer than north american, from what I remember. I don't particularly like the practice myself, but given the whole housing problem with sota, I don't think they have much choice. BDF is poison, imo. Can't put it any other way. He needs to find a new hobby, as every interaction he has with the sota community and devs is purely negative. Definitely would NOT buy him a beer if I met him in person. I've seen community members (in other MMO's) like him before; "dev pets" we used to call them, and it never goes well. They obsess until they're disappointment overcomes their obsession, and then it's another vitriol filled weblog maintained for a few angst filled weeks, and then they move on to the next obsession and failure. BDF is heavily invested. He get's a hugs number of passes by moderation, he answers for the devs as well which is bizarre.
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Jan 29, 2016 17:08:22 GMT
They obsess until they're disappointment overcomes their obsession, and then it's another vitriol filled weblog maintained for a few angst filled weeks, and then they move on to the next obsession and failure This seems oddly familiar to me...
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Jan 29, 2016 17:09:05 GMT
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Post by nemolives on Jan 29, 2016 19:17:33 GMT
"Have you ever in the history of gaming heard of a great game that no one plays because the final wipe was months before the official launch? I've never heard of anything like that." Baron F Yeah, Battlestar Galactica Online. The sad thing is, Baron F is so, so deep into the cult that he doesn't understand he's mixing up two qualities there; "Good" is subjective, but "final wipe" is an objective statement that exists independent of the first subjective view... so every single game that exists can meet that criteria for someone... but he seems to think his viewpoint is objective too, so no one could possibly disagree on Shroud's current condition, or even any other game's for that matter. But if you just more accurately phrase it as "have you ever heard of a game which died after final wipe because the majority of players thought it wasn't a great game, and without a vibrant community, the game had no momentum and died.", well... we'd be here all day naming those. If Shroud doesn't launch with an acceptable content level outside of Baron F and the Whale Cult, it'll die. No amount of further development will save the game, because people will avoid it because they heard it's dead and when they take the risk, no one else does at the same time so it seems dead and starts another round of "It's dead, Jim" reports.
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Caliya
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People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
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Post by Caliya on Jan 29, 2016 20:36:57 GMT
Honestly, I don't see how they can heal this rift. There's more than a dozen posts in that 'final wipe' thread that say don't release until it's ready, but they're going with 1/3 being enough, and to hell with what the community thinks. They did the same thing with Steam, and there was the same backlash that it was too soon. Look what it got them on Steam. Some people never learn.
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Caliya
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People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
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Post by Caliya on Jan 29, 2016 20:40:44 GMT
They even state in that thread that PoT's are now a major facet of the game. When did that happen? Behind closed doors, between just a couple of people who had deep pockets. I'm sure IM has a blog article about it (more than 1)
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Caliya
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People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121
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Post by Caliya on Jan 29, 2016 20:49:14 GMT
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Caliya
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People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121
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Post by Caliya on Jan 29, 2016 20:51:58 GMT
How long till this puppy gets shut down? What's hilarious is, mega posts are never supposed to be shut down. But I was part of one once that did.
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Jan 30, 2016 0:40:06 GMT
Behind closed doors, between just a couple of people who had deep pockets. The really bit let down about this, TEK for example, the Dukes at the earlier round table still really didn't know why this was taking place either. By his posts, he still really doesn't know why it happened. This does go to show you how high up the whale food chain you have to be in order to talk this stuff with them. I'm thinking of a group, less than 6 people.
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Jan 30, 2016 1:12:09 GMT
There it is. Baron F, defeated, by Rune:
"Rune, people use MMO synonymously with multiplayer. They're essentially the same thing. You can debate it on the margins, but the Kickstarter literally talks about Ultima Online which was an MMO."
Baron F
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Jan 30, 2016 1:32:24 GMT
Don't Starve Together, the 6 player massively Multiplayer Online game! Divinity, the two player coop massively Multiplayer Online game!
He conveniently leaves out the fact that the game was to be a successor to the Ultima series, which is 1/10th Multiplayer.
Also, how many times have people on that forum corrected people who classify the game as an mmo? Drocis is likely getting a pass since people are both sick of arguing with someone so dedicated to getting the last word in and satisfied he is valiently defending the game against any criticism in regards to the wipe.
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