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Post by fossil on Dec 16, 2015 20:31:40 GMT
www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/mmorpg-release-25-future-farmers-of-new-britannia.42410/www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/...lease-25-Future-Farmers-of-New-Britannia.htmlI'm not here to troll this article I'm actually here to applaud whomever might be funding this game for another year. Because sometime shortly the money made off the players is going to run out. This will be one heck of a trying year for them to make this game something enjoyable. My one and only recommendation would be to stop policing your forums as much as you do. People will respect leaving touchy subjects up, that come with good topic discussion. The runaway threads are also not a bad thing if they don't go into. Race, sex, hate and discrimination. Having subjective banter and heated debates doesn't take away from looking poor. There is lots of big time gaming companies that used todo what your doing now but they learned you can't silence people completely anymore. You guys should have learned that from this site already. Also maybe pull your game down for periods of time and put it back up vice versa. This creates a desire to want to play the game. I wish you good luck as your in for an upward climb to success at this point. I just can't see myself personally ever playing this game again.
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Dec 16, 2015 20:49:40 GMT
That article is predictably written by Red Thomas. It's been suspected that someone else pens the articles and he sticks his name on it. Or he writes it after being coached. A paid shill is the other suspicion. Of course he's going to pump it up.
I wouldn't trust anything he writes.
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Dec 16, 2015 20:56:31 GMT
See that word I highlighted? Of course they have the "desire". But that sentence says nothing. Further, Starr says nothing different either. Of course the KS promises completed would mean the game is ready to launch. That's always been the case.
They have not announced the game will be ready in one year. An article by some other person, outside of Portalarium, about the desire to release, is no announcement. It only gets people's hopes up and makes them believe. It's worded in such a way that people will come away with that impression.
Unless Portalarium sets the timeline and actual release date - in an official announcement-, I wouldn't believe any of it.
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Post by fossil on Dec 16, 2015 21:20:37 GMT
I am not bitter, just disappointed. I don't feel the need to banter about the same things I continually bring up. Their future is grim anyway you look at it. Whomever is investing is taking on a mighty gamble. The writer is writing himself out of a job if this game doesn't succeed. You don't need to kick a horse that's already down and is struggling to get up.
If you troll harder then the trolls that think their good. You become one. Sometimes when things fall into place you can just sit back and watch the show.
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Dec 16, 2015 21:37:38 GMT
I am not bitter, just disappointed. I don't feel the need to banter about the same things I continually bring up. Their future is grim anyway you look at it. Whomever is investing is taking on a mighty gamble. The writer is writing himself out of a job if this game doesn't succeed. You don't need to kick a horse that's already down and is struggling to get up. If you troll harder then the trolls that think their good. You become one. Sometimes when things fall into place you can just sit back and watch the show. Red Thomas is not a journalist bro Hes a portal crony. Little bit of research will reveal this to you GOOGLE AWAY FRIEND
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Dec 16, 2015 21:47:15 GMT
I don't think it's kicking a dead horse. I think articles and promises that aren't really promises need to be addressed. That is not trolling, nor is it mean spirited.
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Dec 16, 2015 21:51:07 GMT
I've detailed Red Thomas previously and IM wrote something about him for the site. He runs an online marketing firm Red Knight and has a paper on his website about fomentig interest with puff piece articles. He is also based out of San Antonio I believe, which may be where Winfield is from.
Regardless, nice post fossil.
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Post by fossil on Dec 16, 2015 22:23:04 GMT
I don't need to talk about specifics because I hate being a broken record. We have gone over whom this writer is before. His ability to write articles there anymore after this hinges on this game. If there is something new and interesting to talk about ill gladly talk about it. We have gone over this before with these same individuals. If you look at the comments posted probably not from any of us here, the writing is most defiantly on the wall. We don't need to kick them down anymore everyone else is doing it for us. We know how fast they produce content, it will take a miracle to make this something good. After that their business model could sink the ship. They have lots of hard choices to make coming this year.
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Dec 16, 2015 22:45:31 GMT
I don't need to talk about specifics because I hate being a broken record. We have gone over whom this writer is before. His ability to write articles there anymore after this hinges on this game. If there is something new and interesting to talk about ill gladly talk about it. We have gone over this before with these same individuals. If you look at the comments posted probably not from any of us here, the writing is most defiantly on the wall. We don't need to kick them down anymore everyone else is doing it for us. We know how fast they produce content, it will take a miracle to make this something good. After that their business model could sink the ship. They have lots of hard choices to make coming this year. Where you reading this? I was under the impression they were still suckin people in?
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Dec 17, 2015 2:03:45 GMT
The former game player and Ultima lover in me may have enjoyed this article. Except for the obvious first couple of circle jerk paragraphs, but how do you expect to keep getting the inside if you don't do that sort of thing these days?
Crops are good, though rather limited. Sandbox should mean you can plant shit in any dirt anywhere on any surface with enough dirt or proper conditions for type of plant. I don't like how they have limited farming currently to a "feature" of housing. That is just plain fucked. Way to go guys, you found a way to get people to get bigger lots because they still want to maintain their standard of living with the house they already bought. $$$
It really seems like what we have is: 1. Get people in game 2. Create assets people want to buy $ 3. New pledges decrease over time 4. Create new game content(like farming) to bring new players/pledges and $ 5. Create assets people want to buy $ 6. New pledges decrease over time 7. Create new game content-- bla bla bla rinse repeat
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Dec 17, 2015 2:05:14 GMT
Richard pointed out that they have plenty of reserve cash to go through the end of 2016 Ok, so that is surprising to me. Out of the entire article this stands out the most. Plenty of cash? Then finish the fucking game already.
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Dec 17, 2015 2:53:29 GMT
Richard pointed out that they have plenty of reserve cash to go through the end of 2016 Ok, so that is surprising to me. Out of the entire article this stands out the most. Plenty of cash? Then finish the fucking game already. I'm going to napkin math here, so don't fret folks, I know its not particularly accurate. Lets just use the $10,000 a month number per employee I linked to all those many months ago that was given by another indie developer used to gauge the costs of indie development. I count 31 people there according to hangouts. That's potentially $310,000 per month given that developers numbers. Let's not even use those numbers because they are ugly and messy and yucky. Lets use $250,000 because its way way way under what that developer estimated and will still serve to show how ridiculous this statement is. $250,000 a month means they are running at $3 million a year. He's saying they have at a minimum $3 million in the tank, ready to go without any further funding. There is no way that's the case. Starr justified the high prices on the add-on store in the last hangout as needed to fund development of the game. He said the game is expensive to develop and that the reason those costs are high are to further that development. Yet, we're to believe, after Starr stated that, that the high prices on those items actually aren't even necessary, according to RG, because now we find out they're already funded for the next year. They have long maintained that they are funded through the life of the project. I doubt that very much, given the extreme prices they've placed on new add-on store items. Adding a Christmas tree comes with a cost, yet the game is fully funded through 2016? In what realm does it make sense that they continue to attempt to profit from items that should be available for crafting in game yet are added to the add-on store for money when they have all the money they will need before the new year even starts? What I can believe would be them saying their projections show they would be funded through 2016. That would make some sense. Saying they are currently funded through 2016 makes no sense to me.
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Dec 17, 2015 3:04:35 GMT
Saying they are currently funded through 2016 makes no sense to me. I would imagine that is what they actually meant when you put it like that. Is that what you are thinking also?
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Dec 17, 2015 4:09:09 GMT
Saying they are currently funded through 2016 makes no sense to me. I would imagine that is what they actually meant when you put it like that. Is that what you are thinking also? It would have to be. However, those projections can certainly be off. For instance, this month has been particularly poor. They're averaging just $2,788 a day, the lowest since August of 2013. They're averaging just 10 new pledges per day, their lowest since October of 2013. The tanking of the Steam reviews can't be helping to bring in new pledges either. Not only that, but if the game is funding is viable, and indeed they meant their trends would mean the game would be funded through 2016, why would that not continue beyond if they're bringing in sufficient funds. There are a significant number of people who are asking for fewer items in the add on store (though many still ask for more items!).
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Dec 17, 2015 11:46:08 GMT
I'm still not seeing any trolling in that thread. I see people are still interested. And even though sales are down, they are still selling the game. So I'm not really sure why the topic of "kicking a dead horse" even comes up.
Have we repeated ourselves? Of course. Have the people on the forums? Of course.
Should we just stop posting our views so that the dead horse dies a slow death and stop commenting altogether? I'm really not sure what you are talking about fossil.
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Dec 17, 2015 12:35:48 GMT
Well there was new stuff in there, and you can easily talk about it. Farming being slotted into the housing system in essence is a good example. If you look hard enough you can parody just about anything
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Dec 17, 2015 14:25:15 GMT
It should be noted that Red Thomas is a PoT owner, according to the comments.
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Dec 17, 2015 15:08:45 GMT
It should be noted that Red Thomas is a PoT owner, according to the comments. I really feel you over exaggerate their expenditure in your napkin math. I think they are turning money here
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Post by fossil on Dec 17, 2015 15:48:50 GMT
They are in sales. They are always sucking people in: moot point...
They have lots of game left or develop and their reputation is already poor. Others from outside of this site are poorly commenting on the game: don't need to kick a barely breathing horse down anymore... If they think they can take another whole year putting this game together and survive they are quite numb.
Red Thomas has been talked about. The comment section for his article shows his lack of actual journalism and more promotionalism (not a word) for the game. How many people even read that article I bet it's not many.
The only way this can continue is with some sort of high level investor. This individual is gambling their money away on the hope of success. That's quite a ballzy move.
I don't get any personal pleasure from trying to drag people down and drown them while their choking to death.
In fact the only reason I came to this site was because of their forum moderation. And their many 15 year ago thought process on many aspects of the game and moderation. I never wanted to see them burn. I don't like seeing anyone burn.
I think as some before us it might be time for me to now walk away from here. For to me all I see is people draught with hatred and that's not me. I'll continue to post in other sections of the forum but I feel no need to post in the Shroud section anymore.
The game is garbage, some of the people there aren't very good people. But I don't personally know any of them. I enjoy the people here but if the only reason your here is to make yourself feel better about a game that I bet if your an odds guy would have a very slim chance of success. I feel sorry for you. As I have talked to some of you on teamspeak the game is an afterthought for me and on a personal level I don't really like repeating the same topic to death and back and again.
Let it go the time is nearing for this to all be forgetting and be a distant memory. Don't let them win by being so built up in wanting them to fail.
PS this is prolly going to have some writing fails cuz of my phone:) still love all you wonderful people!
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Dec 17, 2015 17:23:21 GMT
They are in sales. They are always sucking people in: moot point... They have lots of game left or develop and their reputation is already poor. Others from outside of this site are poorly commenting on the game: don't need to kick a barely breathing horse down anymore... If they think they can take another whole year putting this game together and survive they are quite numb. Red Thomas has been talked about. The comment section for his article shows his lack of actual journalism and more promotionalism (not a word) for the game. How many people even read that article I bet it's not many. The only way this can continue is with some sort of high level investor. This individual is gambling their money away on the hope of success. That's quite a ballzy move. I don't get any personal pleasure from trying to drag people down and drown them while their choking to death. In fact the only reason I came to this site was because of their forum moderation. And their many 15 year ago thought process on many aspects of the game and moderation. I never wanted to see them burn. I don't like seeing anyone burn. I think as some before us it might be time for me to now walk away from here. For to me all I see is people draught with hatred and that's not me. I'll continue to post in other sections of the forum but I feel no need to post in the Shroud section anymore. The game is garbage, some of the people there aren't very good people. But I don't personally know any of them. I enjoy the people here but if the only reason your here is to make yourself feel better about a game that I bet if your an odds guy would have a very slim chance of success. I feel sorry for you. As I have talked to some of you on teamspeak the game is an afterthought for me and on a personal level I don't really like repeating the same topic to death and back and again. Let it go the time is nearing for this to all be forgetting and be a distant memory. Don't let them win by being so built up in wanting them to fail. PS this is prolly going to have some writing fails cuz of my phone:) still love all you wonderful people! Fair call. lets play albion! Also I have to admit, i am a raver on the internet. RAVING! I dont have many opinions in real life but they mean something to me and when I get behind this keyboard, its like all my anger and frustration manifests. So I apologise. I shall attempt to reflect my true self, a calmer chilled persona
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Dec 17, 2015 17:49:28 GMT
It should be noted that Red Thomas is a PoT owner, according to the comments. I really feel you over exaggerate their expenditure in your napkin math. I think they are turning money here Its possible. I'm only going on what I read from one developer. She worked for both EA and as an indie developer. She estimated $10,000 per employee per month accounting for every expense possible, from electricity and sewer to legal fees, rent, server fees and hardware. At a minimum, they're 31 people making an average of probably around 60k a year, given that dallas, starr, RG's salaries would pull up the average. That's $5,000 per employee, per month. That's $165,000 in salary alone every month which is $1.98 million dollars a year in salary. Completely forgetting any other costs that are associated with running a business taxes, licenses, legal fees, ignoring rent, utilities, etc. and also ignoring the exorbitant cost of health care for employers in the US. I'll give you that my numbers could be off though. I want to be clear I don't claim to know and I'm just pulling from one person, who works in the industry, estimating costs. It is by no means definite.
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Post by fossil on Dec 17, 2015 18:56:10 GMT
I really feel you over exaggerate their expenditure in your napkin math. I think they are turning money here Its possible. I'm only going on what I read from one developer. She worked for both EA and as an indie developer. She estimated $10,000 per employee per month accounting for every expense possible, from electricity and sewer to legal fees, rent, server fees and hardware. At a minimum, they're 31 people making an average of probably around 60k a year, given that dallas, starr, RG's salaries would pull up the average. That's $5,000 per employee, per month. That's $165,000 in salary alone every month which is $1.98 million dollars a year in salary. Completely forgetting any other costs that are associated with running a business taxes, licenses, legal fees, ignoring rent, utilities, etc. and also ignoring the exorbitant cost of health care for employers in the US. I'll give you that my numbers could be off though. I want to be clear I don't claim to know and I'm just pulling from one person, who works in the industry, estimating costs. It is by no means definite. If anything your probably low balling the numbers IMO.
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Dec 17, 2015 22:07:40 GMT
I completely get where fossil is coming from. I don't get any glee from beating up on them. Choices have been made on PoTs and combat and the add on store and there's only so much to say on those topics in a broad sense.
My interest here has a lot to do with the hypothetical and projection and I realize that's not everyone's bag. Because I don't see much positive in the game's future, I could see where a lot of what I post might be perceived as piling on and repetitive.
I don't want to see anyone burned by the game, not even the developers. Sure, I think they've made missteps, but my opinion is and has been that those missteps were made in the hopes of creating a quality, compelling game for everyone. They may have cocked it up in my opinion, but I still believe they have had good intentions in their decisions that have led to bad consequences.
So that's why I'm here, besides liking reading everyone's opinion. I've always enjoyed thinking about the consequences design choices have made in a game. I'm interested in how targeting audiences and demographics alter the way a game is developed.
I've a particular interest in Shroud because it involves personalities in gaming I've had an interest in back when I was in high school. I'm also interested in how crowd funding has continued to shape the development of this game, for better or worse depending on your opinion. All of these things have really made this whole project interesting to me. The money, the characters, the game, the design choices, and its an evolving beast that I actually find fascinating.
As much as Envy might compare me (or us) to a piece of shit, I genuinely hope the game he's backed for thousands meets his desires. I hope Themo and Drocis get the game they want. Majoria and Lazarus and Bubonic and Ahu (hey buddy!) And everyone else there. I don't want for failure. I too was like them, spending a lot of money on the hope something great would come out of it.
But until the game releases, I'll continue to read here and examine their funding and question their design. As much as I might hate it, I'm drawn in by their game in a variety of ways. I think it's a learning excercise, something to study and ponder. The way we got here and the way things are and the way they'll go.
All that said, I see where fossil is coming from and admit I myself have been repetitive to an unnecessary degree. Writung about Red Thomas (not that he is the subject of this thread) just shows stagnation, dwelling on a fact we all know. Posting about him again hasn't elevated any of us to think differently about the game. It's just regurgitating a fact every one of us on the forum already knows. I'm not ripping on anyone who posted about him in this thread. As I said, I myself might be the most guilty of this. In the future, I'll keep fossil's post and my own goals for contributing to this place in mind.
TLDR - I <3 fossil
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Dec 17, 2015 22:32:54 GMT
There are new readers in the forum all the time, who may not have seen the information on Red Thomas. I don't think it hurts to remind people of that. When I first looked at the link to the article, I didn't look at the author until after numerous paragraphs, it sounded much the same as his previous articles. I wondered, and sure enough. And that's the reason I brought it up. Not to be repetitive, but to point out something that some people might miss. Apparently everyone else here is sharp enough to know immediately that he wrote the article. Since I missed it at first, I thought it was useful to bring up.
To be honest, I think fossil had a dream, and that dream was discovered to be a nightmare. He didn't like what he discovered (the Ultimate Collector videos that pointed out, without interpretation that SotA is an expanded UC). That's the first blow for some people. To have regarded someone like RG so highly, to see he appears as some sleazy used car salesmen, well it really knocked my socks off too.
We may repeat ourselves here, and it could be perceived as beating a dead horse or rubbing salt in a wound. But the fact is, there are new people reading this forum all the time, who don't take the time to read the old threads. With ~300 new customers per month, buying that game and discovering this site, I don't think it's too much to say some things more than a few times. It helps people realize they aren't crazy, or bad people for seeing things like we do.
Now, I know the SotA community likes to demonize us. I don't care about that. I cared about the game succeeding by taking away our objections. Instead, they only strengthen our objections by everything they do.
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Dec 17, 2015 22:55:47 GMT
There are new readers in the forum all the time, who may not have seen the information on Red Thomas. I don't think it hurts to remind people of that. When I first looked at the link to the article, I didn't look at the author until after numerous paragraphs, it sounded much the same as his previous articles. I wondered, and sure enough. And that's the reason I brought it up. Not to be repetitive, but to point out something that some people might miss. Apparently everyone else here is sharp enough to know immediately that he wrote the article. Since I missed it at first, I thought it was useful to bring up. We may repeat ourselves here, and it could be perceived as beating a dead horse or rubbing salt in a wound. But the fact is, there are new people reading this forum all the time, who don't take the time to read the old threads. With ~300 new customers per month, buying that game and discovering this site, I don't think it's too much to say some things more than a few times. It helps people realize they aren't crazy, or bad people for seeing things like we do. Fair points
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Dec 18, 2015 8:31:29 GMT
I look at sota there is no way you are paying 60k salary for the work.
Let's be realistic. It's unity. Games with far smaller teams have produced more.
I think it's a combination of part time or sub contracts. Or even pro Bono .
For the work done you wouldn't hire any of these people again.
You really think that this is good development? Do you think the expense equal to the product?
They aren't spending much
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Dec 18, 2015 9:33:57 GMT
I kind of brushed this topic with Andy on Twitter, I don't usually follow up nor do I push for specific answers to questions so this was his reply:
Click in for the info.
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Dec 18, 2015 10:11:48 GMT
I kind of brushed this topic with Andy on Twitter, I don't usually follow up nor do I push for specific answers to questions so this was his reply: Click in for the info. So there's a rough answer pointing to hiring art people who produce add on store garbage. Again this points to the games true nature of ultimate collector. The guild war implementation and I use that loosely adds to the picture .
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Dec 18, 2015 10:34:42 GMT
I kind of brushed this topic with Andy on Twitter, I don't usually follow up nor do I push for specific answers to questions so this was his reply: Click in for the info. How does this relate to MMORPG thread? heh I must be slow...
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Dec 18, 2015 10:57:24 GMT
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