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Post by kb on Jul 1, 2015 1:43:35 GMT
"Carlin the Druid Archer" started a thread to note how out of proportion smaller PoTs look because the templates used must accommodate lots up to the size of city lot (even if the smaller PoT will never be upgraded): www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/player-owned-towns-big-layout-issue-in-my-mind.33505/Aartemis said: And Envy later opined: Hmmm.... so, I wonder what Port will do. Do they.... 1. Forge on cranking out their cookie-cutter PoTs, oblivious to these concerns? 2. Address the concerns of players and find a fix for hamlets and villages? 3. Propose a solution where people pay extra to have their PoT customized beyond the template (like what was proposed with the Blackstone Bluff stuff)? (Oh, yeah, that's right... that last one was a bit dicey, so I think they put it on the backburner for awhile until they removed a few of us "trolls" from the voices who could cry foul). Though I'm uncertain what they'll do, one thing is for sure: The LOWER dollar options, though they clearly make up the vast majority, will get screwed like always (just like the lower dollar pledges who clearly make up the vast majority get the short shrift in design consideration after design consideration when it comes to this cash machine masquerading as a game). Furre, I'd bet that Port will use this problem (and the complaints surrounding it) to roll out the $10k custom PoTs as a solution (i.e., "want your PoT to really look in proportion to its elements??? pay us extra, tyvm!"). So, the wording in the PoT info has gone from some mumbo jumbo about an exclusive design session with a dev, to tweaking a template that's been made to suit everybody (large and small), to a likely final form of skullduggery: "pay us extra is you really want the uber-awesome custom package, baby! AW YEAH! WE ARE SO FUCKING SMART! *CHA-CHING!*"
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dodgy
Strong in the Force
Posts: 1,171
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Post by dodgy on Jul 1, 2015 2:37:35 GMT
With all these POTs do they really expect these to be populated? I see one or two being a hub rest ghost towns. Hell I only go to Kingsport and lurk under the bridge yelling out slightly offensive compliments to unwary passerbys
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Jul 1, 2015 3:05:06 GMT
3. Def number 3.
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Post by Mordecai on Jul 1, 2015 12:15:20 GMT
This thread sucks and that ridiculous poll only offers one size. Hypocrite. Frog > Weasel
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Post by kb on Jul 1, 2015 15:18:26 GMT
But... that's super boring! P.S. To any who still doubt the superiority of weasel flying on a bird (compared to frog riding on a snake), BEHOLD AND BE AMAZED!!!!:
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Post by kb on Jul 1, 2015 15:25:56 GMT
With all these POTs do they really expect these to be populated? I see one or two being a hub rest ghost towns. Hell I only go to Kingsport and lurk under the bridge yelling out slightly offensive compliments to unwary passerbys Remember, there are plenty of backers like Ravicus who not only have higher end pledges (with multiple rent free lots/houses), but he has multiple accounts too. So, presumably, somebody like that might be plopping down up to 15 structures throughout the game world. It's beyond me how in the hell any person would have the time and money to decorate those structures, to spend time in and around each one (making them appear lived in), and to make them anything beyond a glorified dollhouse to admire. Few questions have been asked along dodgy's line of thought. I've seen the issue crop up in hangouts and on threads from time to time, but nobody has really been questioning what all the PoTs and normal towns are going to look like if the majority of the houses were placed and are owned by a relatively low percentage of the player base. Ultimately, I think dodgy has it right and that "ghost towns" is the apt description of what these PoTs will look like. Much of the instances in the world already feel lifeless and empty (with the exceptions of the weirdo in Kingsport who ran up and yelled "HAVE A NICE DAY, YO!" at me for no reason...). I can imagine only a handful of PoTs and dev designed in-game settlements being hubs of activity, with the rest just being soulless repositories for all these extra houses that higher end pledges received when the pledge changes happened (if I remember correctly).
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Post by argyle on Jul 2, 2015 1:07:03 GMT
The last I played, the world felt really hollow and devoid of activity. Towns barely seemed like towns at all other than there were structures there. Certainly that's a consequence of 55000 backers not participating in the ongoing pre-release stuff. Even still, as they fill in this world, people will be spread further and further out. I cannot imagine what kind of life the game is going to have in it at that point. What sort of population do they expect playing in the online game at the same time? Spreading that population out evenly over the towns including the PoTs is going to look absurd. That's if no one is actually going out and fighting.
That's another consequence of making this both an online/offline game. As brilliant as they seem to think it is, there's simply no telling how many of their backers did so for the purposes of playing offline.
Currently they are averaging 51 players online at steamcharts, low point in the last 48 hours was 23. Those are no good very bad numbers, pre-alpha, alpha, beta or not. If they plan on pulling in online users equal to something like LotRO, you are looking at ~1000 people. Problem is though, LotRO isn't selling itself as a world with neighbors and activity. I imagine a lot of people getting this game got it for the community and the sense of world that UO had in it. That'd they'd have neighbors and thriving communities that make if feel like a world. If you have 1000 people online and divide them evenly amongst these towns and the active game world towns, those numbers are going to thin pretty quickly. People invested in this, I would think, to give life to a community. But as kb said, many of them won't be and it doesn't matter how ardent a supporter these people are for Port or the game at that point. When they've invested money into the PoTs and their PoT is a ghost town, they will be pissed.
Oh, but airships!
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Post by kb on Jul 2, 2015 2:54:30 GMT
Currently they are averaging 51 players online at steamcharts, low point in the last 48 hours was 23. Those are no good very bad numbers, pre-alpha, alpha, beta or not. If they plan on pulling in online users equal to something like LotRO, you are looking at ~1000 people. Problem is though, LotRO isn't selling itself as a world with neighbors and activity. I imagine a lot of people getting this game got it for the community and the sense of world that UO had in it. That'd they'd have neighbors and thriving communities that make if feel like a world. If you have 1000 people online and divide them evenly amongst these towns and the active game world towns, those numbers are going to thin pretty quickly. People invested in this, I would think, to give life to a community. But as kb said, many of them won't be and it doesn't matter how ardent a supporter these people are for Port or the game at that point. When they've invested money into the PoTs and their PoT is a ghost town, they will be pissed. Oh, but airships! I agree with everything you say about spreading out the population, online/offline, etc. However, there is one thing I'll add about the steamchart thing (which is admittedly something I know nothing about...): www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/steamcharts-delivers-false-sota-numbers.33543/^Maybe some of you who know more about Steam (and steamcharts) understand why there's such a difference between the numbers. I don't really get it, but from the very limited time I spent in game (long ago), I rarely saw ANYBODY, so I'd be surprised if 1500+ players were logging in at the same time on a consistent basis (which still isn't that many, especially if some are in SP mode).
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Post by argyle on Jul 2, 2015 4:23:48 GMT
Currently they are averaging 51 players online at steamcharts, low point in the last 48 hours was 23. Those are no good very bad numbers, pre-alpha, alpha, beta or not. If they plan on pulling in online users equal to something like LotRO, you are looking at ~1000 people. Problem is though, LotRO isn't selling itself as a world with neighbors and activity. I imagine a lot of people getting this game got it for the community and the sense of world that UO had in it. That'd they'd have neighbors and thriving communities that make if feel like a world. If you have 1000 people online and divide them evenly amongst these towns and the active game world towns, those numbers are going to thin pretty quickly. People invested in this, I would think, to give life to a community. But as kb said, many of them won't be and it doesn't matter how ardent a supporter these people are for Port or the game at that point. When they've invested money into the PoTs and their PoT is a ghost town, they will be pissed. Oh, but airships! I agree with everything you say about spreading out the population, online/offline, etc. However, there is one thing I'll add about the steamchart thing (which is admittedly something I know nothing about...): www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/steamcharts-delivers-false-sota-numbers.33543/^Maybe some of you who know more about Steam (and steamcharts) understand why there's such a difference between the numbers. I don't really get it, but from the very limited time I spent in game (long ago), I rarely saw ANYBODY, so I'd be surprised if 1500+ players were logging in at the same time on a consistent basis (which still isn't that many, especially if some are in SP mode). Just joined that group. True, there are 1300 in game, but they aren't playing SotA. 1300 is the total number that are in the group playing any game. Fuck my life but I'm about to go count.
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Post by argyle on Jul 2, 2015 4:34:40 GMT
Alright, fuck that, I'm not counting through 301 pages of people. But take a look for yourself. Anyone green is 'in game'. There are 1300 people in game, almost none of them are playing Shroud. Dude is not even remotely close to correct. As far as I can tell, Steamcharts appears to be pretty close to accurate. The few pages I looked through, I did not see a single person in Shroud. I will concede not everyone plays through Steam, so sure, there are more than 54 people playing. But there certainly aren't many playing through Steam and I'm more inclined to believe the data that steamcharts has than some guy who appears appears to be unable to comprehend this data: Official Shroud Steam Group Members
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Post by argyle on Jul 2, 2015 4:54:45 GMT
kb I should probably at least explain Steam Groups. Anyone can create or join a group about anything. You could make the 'We Hate Sota' Steam group. What the group does is when people join it, they are part of a small community. It shows you who is online in that community. Here are literally the steps you need to take to create one about anything: How do I make someone an officer of my group? Login to your Steam Community Profile. Select GROUPS and click the Visit admin page link next to the group you wish to edit. Select the Manage Members tab and click the star next to the user you wish to promote to an officer. So just as an example, I'm in a Stream group called Gamers with Jobs. There are 2,738 members, 153 in-game, 848 online. That doesn't mean they are playing any specific game. That means they are a) in the group and b) playing some game, any game. That's how every steam group works. The Steam group he is talking about is the official SotA steam group. You don't even have to own the game to join it (I just joined). The SotA steam group page can be found here: Official Group Shroud of the Avatar: Forsaken VirtuesSo something else about Steam, it keeps track of who does what in SotA, right. Via achievements. And those stats are public. % of people who have achieved each achievement. Want to see some sad sad sad shit? Only 9.5% of Steam SotA players have bothered to kill more than 10 creatures, Wanna know how the thriving PvP is in that game? Only 0.1% of Steam SotA players have earned the 'kill 10 players' achievement. There's no dressing this up. I am embarrassed by this for them, actually. The fact that someone can spout off that kind of misinformation and have it go literally unchallenged despite every single fact Steam provides like exactly what games the players within that group are playing is dumbfounding. I wish I had posting privileges. That guy, and the people who liked that post without bothering to do a shred of digging into whether it was actually true, should be ashamed of themselves. There is literally no possible way playing that game you could be under the impression that there is ever remotely close to that number of players online at any given time. I can't tell if he's being willfully deceptive of just incredibly ignorant.
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Post by grimgryphon on Jul 2, 2015 5:16:31 GMT
I can't tell if he's being willfully deceptive of just incredibly ignorant. Both. Read his posts here and on the SotA forums.
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Post by Housewife British on Jul 2, 2015 5:25:54 GMT
I can't see many people sticking around in this game long enough to populate many pot's. The game has nothing to offer, it is to simple and easy, no long term anything to work for, combat is the worst there has ever been. On release I see people trying the game because of British's name on it, finishing the story line than quitting. This isn't the new UO and it will never be that popular. All these retarded prices and the bad economy setup because they decided to void some things they stated on kickstarter to bank money in their pay to win store is going to discourage a lot of people from playing too. I'd like to know how any instance is going to turn out with seeing people when the silly match making crap they claim to one day be implementing gets put in. Unless you jump on the carebear band wagon and abide by all these pampered pot owners rules, you could very well easily end up on their block list too. Not only pot owners but most of these people in game now which will most likely make up the population later will be utilizing that list, abusing it. Especially if you are playing the game as a pk, pking them while they are trying to harvest, or if they are exploring, anything that makes something not easy for them, they will resort to blocking you I bet. The game has one thing that will help fill the pot's though and that is that the world is so small but at the same time I can't see enough people playing this to even fill the small novia.
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Post by argyle on Jul 2, 2015 5:42:42 GMT
I can't tell if he's being willfully deceptive of just incredibly ignorant. Both. Read his posts here and on the SotA forums. Yeah, I'm kind of wary about the usernames used here though. Some guy spent a long time impersonating Envy. Still, I wonder if he'd at least have the decency to admit his mistake. My guess is no. Instead he'll insist that all the data that Steam uses and provides with their API which is what steamcharts uses to compile its data is actually all incorrect and the in game population is in fact 3000% higher and that all their data is flawed because he's too stupid to understand Steam group functions.
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Post by Fiver on Jul 2, 2015 6:09:46 GMT
I'm actually pretty sure that guy posting here was Envy. It was something he said in game and the fact that he had a couple of short bans on the official forums. I think that he might have thought Port was on to him and quickly decided to distance himself from these forums by telling everyone on the main forums that it wasn't him. Personally I think the guys an absolute dick the way he has tried to compete with The Mad Hermit by getting his grand tour videos out before him.
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Post by Housewife British on Jul 2, 2015 6:25:16 GMT
I wondered about Envy, I've seen him act like a complete fanboy within the Shroud community than here he was different.
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Jul 2, 2015 6:31:28 GMT
Posting on the fucking SotA forum is basically like pointing a video camera at a group of people. Even though there are twats like Kardashians everywhere, most people's behaviour changes to a large degree when they are being watched. Here, you are free. There you are under close scrutiny.
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Post by Housewife British on Jul 2, 2015 6:52:41 GMT
I know a few people do this but I doubt that many are dumb enough to use their forum identity here to talk shit. Who knows, but if he's using his real forum name here than I doubt he is masking his host, so take his ip and match it up with his in game ip, irc ip, if you know the method to obtain those.
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dodgy
Strong in the Force
Posts: 1,171
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Post by dodgy on Jul 2, 2015 9:36:08 GMT
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Post by Housewife British on Jul 2, 2015 12:30:11 GMT
Just taking a guess here but I'd think at this point either half or learning towards the majority use steam. I know most of the older players from before stream, most if not all of them linked their accounts. I also used to hear all the tards discussing steam cards at all times.
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Post by grimgryphon on Jul 2, 2015 12:53:38 GMT
I'm actually pretty sure that guy posting here was Envy. It was something he said in game and the fact that he had a couple of short bans on the official forums. I was thinking that as well. Some of the things he said and the way he said them were way too much like Envy on the SotA forums. Unless the person posting did an awful lot of research into Envy's "style", I'd say it was him and daddy Portalarium caught him and gave him a time-out.
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Post by grimgryphon on Jul 2, 2015 12:55:08 GMT
Posting on the fucking SotA forum is basically like pointing a video camera at a group of people. Even though there are twats like Kardashians everywhere, most people's behaviour changes to a large degree when they are being watched. Here, you are free. There you are under close scrutiny. Yep and all that virtuous talk comes crashing down when they're over here. Fucking posers.
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Post by kb on Jul 2, 2015 13:46:41 GMT
Just joined that group. True, there are 1300 in game, but they aren't playing SotA. 1300 is the total number that are in the group playing any game. Fuck my life but I'm about to go count. Thanks for explaining that stuff. I've chatted with myrcello a few times and he's seemed reasonable, despite his support for sota, so I'd guess it's a misunderstanding. No idea though. Anyway thanks again for the time spent explaining why his point is b s... The very reason I linked it is because I figured one of you would understand it in the context of steam better than I do.
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Post by kb on Jul 2, 2015 14:40:11 GMT
Alright, fuck that, I'm not counting through 301 pages of people. But take a look for yourself.
Yep. Skimming through the first 10 pages, I see ZERO people playing SOTA (plenty playing Terraria and ARK: Survival, tho). I do think Myrcello looks at this place from time to time (maybe he stopped visiting it though), so perhaps he'll address this either here or in the thread he started on the official forum. In any case, if I had to bet, I'd put my money on the steamcharts being the correct number because every time I look at SotA's info on steam, it never gives a number for how many people are in-game (not sure why this is omitted, unless they don't want people to see how few players are actually playing their cash machine masquerading as a game). In contrast, click on ARK's community hub and you find 48,000+ players in-game, consistently. Terraria Shows 112,000 in-game as I write this, too.
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Post by Dewderonomy on Jul 2, 2015 15:01:56 GMT
The amount of logic and research displayed on these forums, uh, is fairly alarming.
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Post by grimgryphon on Jul 2, 2015 15:05:17 GMT
The amount of logic and research displayed on these forums, uh, is fairly alarming. You have to. Port and the fanboys spend a ton of time trying to obfuscate any flaws present in the game and development that digging through as much correspondence as possible is the only way to find out what is really going on.
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Post by Ravicus on Jul 2, 2015 15:32:36 GMT
With all these POTs do they really expect these to be populated? I see one or two being a hub rest ghost towns. Hell I only go to Kingsport and lurk under the bridge yelling out slightly offensive compliments to unwary passerbys Remember, there are plenty of backers like Ravicus who not only have higher end pledges (with multiple rent free lots/houses), but he has multiple accounts too. So, presumably, somebody like that might be plopping down up to 15 structures throughout the game world. It's beyond me how in the hell any person would have the time and money to decorate those structures, to spend time in and around each one (making them appear lived in), and to make them anything beyond a glorified dollhouse to admire. Few questions have been asked along dodgy's line of thought. I've seen the issue crop up in hangouts and on threads from time to time, but nobody has really been questioning what all the PoTs and normal towns are going to look like if the majority of the houses were placed and are owned by a relatively low percentage of the player base. Ultimately, I think dodgy has it right and that "ghost towns" is the apt description of what these PoTs will look like. Much of the instances in the world already feel lifeless and empty (with the exceptions of the weirdo in Kingsport who ran up and yelled "HAVE A NICE DAY, YO!" at me for no reason...). I can imagine only a handful of PoTs and dev designed in-game settlements being hubs of activity, with the rest just being soulless repositories for all these extra houses that higher end pledges received when the pledge changes happened (if I remember correctly). It is true that I have multiple accounts. It is not my intention or care really if people live in my town or not. I want to have a theme town for evil rp. It will be rp/pvp. I also backed Abydos's town for full loot pvp. The reason I want multiple properties is because I want to sculpt the town to what I want it to look like. With the tax free lots I don't have to worry so much about taking a break from the game and losing my spots. I will never charge tax for rent. I actually am planning on giving my friends what ever I can for lodging in the town via room permissions or basement room permissions. Hell I wont even live in the keep, it will be for my guild members. I will probably live in the light house or cemetery basement lol. I do have hopes for the game and I do have skin in the game. It would be in my best interests to promote the game. Now you can call me a fanboy blinded by my monetary input all you want. Its cool. Can I ask you a question though. Why do you guys care so much about it really. If you guys did not care about sota then you wouldnt even be here badmouthing it. It perplexes me that you go out of your way to bash something you could care less about lol. But anyways I do enjoy the good show you guys put on. I'll be your whipping post. Continue the lashings.
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Post by kb on Jul 2, 2015 15:57:51 GMT
It is true that I have multiple accounts. It is not my intention or care really if people live in my town or not. I want to have a theme town for evil rp. It will be rp/pvp. I also backed Abydos's town for full loot pvp. The reason I want multiple properties is because I want to sculpt the town to what I want it to look like. With the tax free lots I don't have to worry so much about taking a break from the game and losing my spots. I will never charge tax for rent. I actually am planning on giving my friends what ever I can for lodging in the town via room permissions or basement room permissions. Hell I wont even live in the keep, it will be for my guild members. I will probably live in the light house or cemetery basement lol. I do have hopes for the game and I do have skin in the game. It would be in my best interests to promote the game. Now you can call me a fanboy blinded by my monetary input all you want. Its cool. Can I ask you a question though. Why do you guys care so much about it really. If you guys did not care about sota then you wouldnt even be here badmouthing it. It perplexes me that you go out of your way to bash something you could care less about lol. But anyways I do enjoy the good show you guys put on. I'll be your whipping post. Continue the lashings. Uhhh... Pointing out that a lot of higher dollar backers have 3+ houses/rent-free lot deeds to place is hardly whipping or lashing you. It's just making the point that all of these PoTs and dev-created settlements that are spread out across the world are going to be filled with underutilized real estate and will probably feel like ghost towns to the casual player who strolls through them, even if people are exploring them during prime playing hours. You yourself allude to part of the problem ("With the tax free lots I don't have to worry so much about taking ab reak from the game and losing my spots"). How full of life are your structures and PoT going to be if you are taking your break (and presumably some of your friends and guildies are too)? Now imagine other backers doing the same thing at random intervals. You really think there are going to be enough people logged in, mucking about their houses, to make most of these soon-to-be ghost towns feel like anything more than a repository for redundant housing??? ^This does not appear to bode well for the "living world" kind of feel they are wanting to achieve. Just more empty scenes full of nothing to do (unless you're a dollhouse decorator). FWIW, I'm hardly the first person to express this concern. It's not attacking you, I just pointed at you as an example because you recently shared you hold like 5 higher dollar pledges (and if I remember correctly, each of those pledges includes 3+ structures to place). Finally, as for why do many of us care so much about it, really? Well, for me, there is the fact that I put what was a lot of money for me into the game and was treated like shit for my trouble. So, there is a bit of vindictive schadenfreude to enjoy when I now share my criticisms that were always valid (but went unheeded time and time again). Also, I still hold (as do most here) a $45 pledge. So we are backers still, though many of us are unwelcome to share our feedback on the forums or on steam indefinitely. And, as for the comment about how we wouldn't be badmouthing the game if we didn't care about it, that's where you, and Starr, and FL and the rest fail every time. You think these kinds of points are "bad-mouthing" when in fact, they are valid criticisms that should be addressed (but won't be, because the game and its team have people like you defending most of their bullshit). Even if we won't ever play the game, it doesn't change the fact that a HUGE portion of the things people say here is valid (and you will see it come true when the game launches and ultimately disappoints). There are some quality individuals who have moved on and are truly done with SotA (e.g., Gunga Din), and some of us who have realized there is some pleasure in pointing out the obvious and expressing the things we were never allowed to express when posting over in the land of sycophancy. I don't see how my motivations have to be any deeper than "it feels good to say what I think and not have to hem and haw and kiss-ass all the time while I"m doing it." Believe it or not, I used to be very active on MMORPG's forums years ago and would comment and criticize many games and their design choices, even if they weren't my game of choice. This is because, to me, there is still something valuable about the process of engaging in critical thinking, regardless of what the subject at hand is. Whether I care that much about SotA is beyond the point. I care about expressing myself and having my say about how its development is going (something I originally believed I was getting when I pledged).
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Jul 2, 2015 15:58:07 GMT
At the moment, I still have a citizen pledge. Clearly not as much as the rest of the people still actually active over at the den of terror. Principle is all I can answer on. Portalarium sold me something for my $500 and I didn't get it, almost immediately. Not because of the fact the game is like two years overdue, but because they have lied, cheated, and stolen their way forward. At least, it seems like they have. If they actually haven't and it just seems that way, then it is even worse that they haven't been able to manage their image and community direction what so ever. Look at me, us, don't you think I and we would rather put time into something worth while as well? Contribute our thoughts and time into what we were sold to begin with? I can't speak for everyone, but yeah I would like to help. Just one problem, I'm not going to get on my knees and suck anyone's cock to do it. I was sold the promise of what Starr actually thinks his crowdsourced ecosystem is actually doing, not what we all here can see it has turned into. Nawwww, just fucking kidding lulz. All this place is about is calling you lot of fucks carebares without getting banned yo
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Post by kb on Jul 2, 2015 16:04:10 GMT
Nawwww, just fucking kidding lulz. All this place is about is calling you lot of fucks carebares without getting banned yo
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