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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Dec 20, 2015 3:17:22 GMT
Envy trolled the hell out of BMC in one of BMC's threads the other day, including several of Envy's forum alts which joined in to do so also. Envy got moderated. Envy got upset and announced his intention to leave SotA forums. www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/bye-bye.42696/What is most funny about this; Dallas. Post 1: Envy, I, too, agree that you are an asset to the community. Although your communication style often pushes the limits of the SotA forum policies, that doesn't alter the fact that your passion for the game, and tireless energy to share your learnings, are of great value to the SotA community in general (as demonstrated by my including your latest Grand Tour Quest video in the weekly Update of the Avatar). I am one of the primary architects of our current forum policies. It has been my experience that the vast majority of people prefer a safe, healthy, nourishing environment to hang out in. A small minority of human beings have a thick skin and are not offended by aggressive/confrontational/"bear-poking" communication styles. These can often be (but not always) the players that prefer PvP over PvE. That being said, we are attempting to create a game that satisfies some of the needs of the PvP'rs as well as the PvE'rs. I am intrigued by the notion of experimenting with the same design philosophy within the forums. Having a special sub-forum within the main forums that was more lightly moderated might satisfy the communication needs of those that feel they are being too tightly constrained. If we were to create such a sub-forum, would you be interested in being a volunteer moderator for that area, or have recommendations for others that might be willing to moderate that area (PM me with suggestions if so)? The majority of the SotA Dev Team has expressed discomfort in hanging out in such a lightly moderated forum so they would be officially reprieved from ever having to respond to any posts there. The participants in that sub-forum would have to be accepting of that. In general, I'm wondering if having such a sub-forum would satisfy the needs of the few without compromising the needs of the majority. I haven't yet convinced the rest of the management team, but it sounds like a worthy experiment to me. dallas Post 2: in reply to someone who wished the new forum wouldnt be Dev free: I'm afraid that it would be almost completely Dev free. We have a code of communication conduct at Portalarium that we do not allow members of the team to speak to each other in any way that can be construed as disrespectful. We find that communication styles that can be perceived as disrespectful are corrosive to long-term team cohesiveness and cooperation. Because of this fundamental Portalarium principle, we only attract team members that are in alignment with that principle.
Thus, if any member of the community wished to air their grievances in such a way as to promote Dev Team responses, they would have to do so in the more normally moderated areas of the forum. All this means is they would have to be less confrontational/aggressive/"bear-poking" (or "ass ripping" as Duke Ezekial so colorfully expressed) when airing their grievances. Interesting to see that Dallas has claimed responsibility for the forum policies. Also what makes Envy such an asset? Even raw cash wise, does he have as much as bblackstone did in the game? Many people have asked for an offtopic forum there before, why does it take Envy leaving to open up their fucking eyes? Lastly, and I'm sorry Dallas, but you are so full of shit about your team members and how they speak. One word; Chris.
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Dec 20, 2015 4:07:09 GMT
we do not allow members of the team to speak to each other in any way that can be construed as disrespectfulLastly, and I'm sorry Dallas, but you are so full of shit about your team members and how they speak. One word; Chris. They can't speak to each other in that manner. Says nothing about how they are allowed to speak to customers.
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Dec 20, 2015 4:11:26 GMT
He is pissed because he spammed a thread and got called on it. He deserved to be moderated yet dallas essentially apologizes to Envy and offers up the idea to create a forum just for him and his play style?
What the actual fuck is happening? The guy is a flagrant jerk on a consistent basis. He's been moderated before. Caliya posts about Stand Up corner and is banned? Envy just had a thread deleted after he inferred we were pieces of shit.
Yet somehow, there remains absolutely no unfair treatment based on backer status. Envy's treatment is 100% the same fair treatment any other member of the community would get.
Bullshit. Others would be banned. He's offered his own unmoderated forum.
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Dec 20, 2015 5:01:41 GMT
Kind of makes you wonder, how someone gets so deep into the process? Money? Favours? Sexual favours? Seriously, how!
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Dec 20, 2015 7:36:57 GMT
Themo
You don't say!
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Dec 20, 2015 12:55:48 GMT
When I first read dallas' post, I seriously thought it was an April Fool's joke, but no, it's December. Rewarding trolling and moderation by giving the troll his own subforum? That asshole has reported more posts than any current moderator. None of us would last 2 seconds in his forum. He'd have the forum so fucking skewed to his aggressive trolling style, it would be one big joke. I like how Captain Jack says it so downplayed.... www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/bye-bye.42696/page-4#post-474931
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Dec 20, 2015 14:40:34 GMT
"I skimmed this thread and noted the points starting from where @dallas chimed in.
I tend to put heavy trolls on ignore, as well as people who read my posts and respond with acerbic language. The few times I've tried to call people on their attacks by fighting fire with fire, I've been moderated. This appears to be working as intended. I also ignore people based on the principle that 'if I read their posts, it's going to annoy me, and probably provoke me into responding in a way which is against the forum rules'.
Previously, if I had a problem with a post, I would report it. I was soon addressed for this behavior as "trying to guide moderation", and was asked to stop, which I did. I don't want to report posts now because I'm too worried that instead of looking at the post, the mods will look at me, and I'll get another stern reminder not to attempt to moderate the forums by proxy. Maybe we could have an official document stating preferred methods of conflict interception, conflict resolution, and damage control? I know that I can email support@portalarium.com, but I don't want to create even more CS JIRA tickets. I want to respond to an incident where it's happening (the forum), at the place where it's happening (the post), and give my testimony at that point.
There are things happening outside of this forum which have everything to do with this forum and the game, and there's no way to stop it.
-DDOS attacks on various community TeamSpeak servers -attempted Anonymous / 4chan dox attacks
In a sense, there's some real-world PvP at play here, and it's outside of the purview of Portalarium. The fact that people are taking things to this level over this game is something that really bothers me, because it's proof that people will sink to any depth to seek their own personal justice, at the expense of the community as a whole.
The problem with taking the high road, and expecting people to do the same, is that there's no end to people who will take the low road, or find deeper depths in which to sink in order to achieve their objectives. "
- Jack Knyfe
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Post by nemolives on Dec 20, 2015 15:10:23 GMT
Back home again, just catching up on the Unlimited and... blimey! I have to wonder if Envy gets such specialist attention because he's just about the only vocal supporter of PvP left; without him, an entire playstyle disappears from their forums. Here's the thing though; he's precisely the worst possible defender of PvP you could have, because he's typical of the sort of player who ensures no one else wants to take part because everything about the game becomes so toxic... the kind who thinks it's not enough to win in game, they have to metagame and manipulate the game rules themselves, the reporting system, even the forums to make everything a fight. It means every time you think about a game you have to worry you're going to get punished for it. It makes you nauseous and constantly afraid. It means people stop thinking about the game if they can't just switch it off and relax, and they walk away entirely because the stress just isn't worth it. It's never been PvP itself that I've been against; I used to rank pretty highly in Dawn of War 1 for instance (top 100 worldwide according to one measurement) and in that old fashioned RTS you had to mangle everything your opponent ever built to win. And that's fun! Yes you got pissed if it happened to you, but because everyone starts the next match equalised and fresh again, it passes and you come back for more fun later. But there's something about MMO PvP that just brings out the gigantic babies and arseholes. And here we have a classic example. The guy has had preferential forum treatment for years. He's still got the exact same game in the exact same development path it's always had, so if he loved the game, what has he really lost? But just because for once his behaviour on the forums is called into question, that for once he has to think that maybe he can't always win, he throws a gigantic tantrum. And this is why the "Risk vs Reward" argument never persuaded me, because for many it was never about them taking the risk. They wanted "sheep" who they could easily fleece and take their reward; they wanted to be the risk to you. And I had this debate with him about his videos mocking people he killed; we'd been talking about Spitting Image and offensive satire, and I pointed out he'd not understood that Spitting Image was ok because it knew that punching upwards is satire, but punching down is just cruelty. It had always tacitly been on the side of the powerless. And he wanted to be cruel. That Dallas thinks having a forum dedicated to that will be acceptable shows just how out of touch they are with game development... instead of setting the boundaries and standing by them, instead of leading by example, they fawn before a playerbase that literally has more money than sense. A robust design document listing how PvP will integrate into gameplay, with details about how PvE players can take part without feeling they risk everything ( I made a lot of suggestions way back in February to try and support this) would have done far more to keep the community engaged and attract new players than trying to keep someone who put off your potential audience from sulking; that's not growth, that's damage avoidance. That's not setting off the violent partner because you don't want them to hit you again. Well guess what? Such a partner never changes. All you can do is get up and walk out before they ultimately kill you. And the game is being killed by staying on this design path. It upsets you Envy? Well maybe you should have thought of that whilst you thought you were winning short term, eh? Edited to add: InsaneMembrane quoted Jack Knyfe whilst I was looking to respond I see.... yes, that exactly, as I also just said.
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Dec 20, 2015 15:13:43 GMT
I like how Themo accuses me of using my husband's account to post at SotA. If I wanted to do that, I would've done so from day 1 when I was banned. 2nd, I don't even have, nor do I want, his password on anything - least of all his own PC.
As if we never think independently and come up with the same opinion - funny how that works with married couples. lol
Tars was surprised to log in and find a PM from DarkStarr, concerned that he wasn't posting at the SotA forums but instead Steam. lol
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Caliya
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People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
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Post by Caliya on Dec 20, 2015 15:16:36 GMT
he's precisely the worst possible defender of PvP you could have, because he's typical of the sort of player who ensures no one else wants to take part because everything about the game becomes so toxic... the kind who thinks it's not enough to win in game, they have to metagame and manipulate the game rules themselves, the reporting system, even the forums to make everything a fight. It means every time you think about a game you have to worry you're going to get punished for it. So, so true. Add on top of that, Envy freely admitting that he exploits. Devs like to close the holes of exploits, but Envy isn't doing it purely for their benefit. He was a griefer/exploiter in UO and will continue doing so in SotA. Toxic to the core.
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Post by grimgryphon on Dec 20, 2015 15:39:04 GMT
What the actual fuck is happening? The guy is a flagrant jerk on a consistent basis. He's been moderated before. Caliya posts about Stand Up corner and is banned? Envy just had a thread deleted after he inferred we were pieces of shit. Simple answer: Envy has a buttload of POTs. EDIT: As I was writing this, the question came up again. Who's leaving? The real Envy? The fake Envy? The fake real Envy? The real fake Envy? ;-)
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Dec 20, 2015 15:43:54 GMT
I know Envy has a plethora, an army in fact, of alts. I just don't know who they are. Do you?
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Dec 20, 2015 15:56:28 GMT
I'm lmao that both Themo & Ezekiel are accusing me of using Tars account. They are proving, by their typical behavior, how toxic the forum is. They are it. lmao
Good job guys. Thanks for proving our point!
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Post by chodekiller on Dec 20, 2015 16:43:43 GMT
We have a code of communication conduct at Portalarium that we do not allow members of the team to speak to each other in any way that can be construed as disrespectful. We find that communication styles that can be perceived as disrespectful are corrosive to long-term team cohesiveness and cooperation. Because of this fundamental Portalarium principle, we only attract team members that are in alignment with that principle. That is a blatant lie. There has been countless times where faggots like Chris Spears would talk shit with other team members about Rustic Dragon before he was "fired".
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Dec 20, 2015 17:12:20 GMT
I had a good chuckle at the thread.
Self licking ice cream.
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Dec 20, 2015 17:43:20 GMT
dallas has now locked the thread in which he discussed over moderation because of the accusations about Portalarium favoritism and it violating forum rules.
FUCKING BRILLIANT.
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Dec 20, 2015 18:10:51 GMT
lmao!
No...no we don't over-moderate. It's the most open forum ever!
bahaha
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Dec 20, 2015 18:22:46 GMT
My favorite part of this is myrcello posting this Then, Baron F 45 minutes and 1 post later, this from dallas
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Dec 20, 2015 18:28:43 GMT
lmao! No...no we don't over-moderate. It's the most open forum ever! bahaha I think the great thing was dallas was actually saying, 'Hey, maybe we might over moderate or maybe we should have a forum that is less moderated. Maybe its my fault because I set the rules for these forums.' Then, 'oh shit, this thread is getting out of control now. guilds are beginning to criticize each other and myrcello is linking to negative comments. we better lock this fucker.' He just locked a thread that showed exactly why what he proposed will not work.
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Dec 20, 2015 18:36:39 GMT
Its just a toxic little bunch who feed of each other.
I know these types. Big Fish in a small pond. Thats all it is. The one place where they can shine. LIke fuck Im having a whammy so im quitting. Good work, my fucking 2 year old doesnt even do that.
If they generally cared about the game they wouldnt conduct themselves as such. Such a pack of slime who in absence of facts revert to personal attacks
Hell back when Violation, Themo etc got extra silver, items etc during the releases. Its just one sham after the next. Controversy after controversy. I have posted before saying SOTA had a PR issue. Some agreed others didnt.
The stupid thing is oh big brave SOTA crusaders there is a place where you can chat unmoderated, lay down your shit without fear of reprisal. But you wouldnt come here would you? Money dont talk here sunshine.
In the words of some other douche.
*eats popcorn*
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Dec 20, 2015 18:51:09 GMT
You know it's funny really. The more you try to control something, the more out of hand it gets. And then they prove what they set out to prove. You can't trust a bunch of adults. Because why? A bunch of competitive whales who think their....fins...are bigger than another whale's.....fins....want to shut down anyone & everyone who doesn't kneel at their feet.
Yes, you, you goddamned stupid whales.
Think. Use your heads. You wonder why people don't like this game concept. Because of the same shit that happens in your forums. Control, troll, toxic spew. What kind of fun game is that with a bunch of rabid dicks?
Portalarium created that Frankenstein with their design concept. Let them suffer with it.
lmao
*shares dodgy's popcorn*
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Dec 20, 2015 19:08:40 GMT
And wtf is this DDOS claim?
I havent even heard of SOTA over on 4chan
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Dec 20, 2015 19:35:27 GMT
And wtf is this DDOS claim? I havent even heard of SOTA over on 4chan He's claiming that there is inter guild conflict has been taken out of game and that there have been ddos attacks on guild teamspeak servers. This isnt' the first time out of game attacks like this. There was that weird harrassment thread that mentioned people attacking other people out of game. I think this is a product of egos and people investing tens of thousands of dollars in game and controlling guilds competing against each other. It is bound to get nasty. The thing is, you rarely get a glimpse into how nasty it can get because it doesn't see the light of day very often on the forums. I wonder if bblackstone had any experience with this. I realize you may not want to comment, but a simple yes or no would be sufficient to show that something at least has been going on outside of game. No negativity or anything needed. Its just for awareness of how cutthroat things can get.
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Dec 20, 2015 20:03:15 GMT
And wtf is this DDOS claim? I havent even heard of SOTA over on 4chan He's claiming that there is inter guild conflict has been taken out of game and that there have been ddos attacks on guild teamspeak servers. This isnt' the first time out of game attacks like this. There was that weird harrassment thread that mentioned people attacking other people out of game. I think this is a product of egos and people investing tens of thousands of dollars in game and controlling guilds competing against each other. It is bound to get nasty. The thing is, you rarely get a glimpse into how nasty it can get because it doesn't see the light of day very often on the forums. I wonder if bblackstone had any experience with this. I realize you may not want to comment, but a simple yes or no would be sufficient to show that something at least has been going on outside of game. No negativity or anything needed. Its just for awareness of how cutthroat things can get. IM showed us the thread where someone had been threatened outside of SotA, and implied he (IM) was being harassed too, and would keep us informed. It has gotten to the point where some of them don't even hold back how psycho they are. I mean, creating a conspiracy theory that I'm using my husband's account means they are using alts themselves, and creating controversy. It speaks to the implication that they will stoop to any means to either shut up dissent, so they can succeed at making money off the game, to the point of threatening people. Here is that thread: www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/real-life-harassment-and-how-its-handled.41834/The fact that Dallas is behaving like an old grandpa that trusts his most mischievous and devious grandson (aka Envy) or being the same mind as Envy in making money at every means possible. They say birds of a feather flock together. Now that we know Dallas is making the forum rules, kicking people, locking threads, and supporting people like Envy, what does that say for the development team? They exposed themselves, man. I guess I'm too honest of a person to stoop to any of those means to get my way. If my worst crime is posting at this forum, then please let that be my worst offense. I have never made an alt account at SotA, nor used my husband's because I believe in my heart that truth triumphs over evil. Even if I don't see it in this lifetime, I believe there is karmic debt and some of those guys have deep karmic debts they're creating. It's not up to me to punish them but let them perish in their own fetid crap. As for Ezekiel posting that about me, the only thing I can say about that: I don't recall ever debating him in the forum. The only time I insulted him was indirectly, in this forum about how I would never join a guild like his. He's out to make money on the game and he will harm anyone in his way. That seems clear. Same for people like Themo. Envy might be a malicious prick, but I'm not sure even he would stoop to those tactics - although I wouldn't put it past him to hack someone else's account. But I am almost sure people like Ezekiel and Themo would - based on the kinds of things they've posted about me and treated other people who disagree with them on the forums.
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Caliya
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People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
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Post by Caliya on Dec 20, 2015 20:08:24 GMT
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Post by dewderonomy on Dec 20, 2015 21:13:00 GMT
I have to wonder if Envy gets such specialist attention because he's just about the only vocal supporter of PvP left; without him, an entire playstyle disappears from their forums. Here's the thing though; he's precisely the worst possible defender of PvP you could have, because he's typical of the sort of player who ensures no one else wants to take part because everything about the game becomes so toxic... Envy and them have admitted that they use the best templates even if they're broken. This isn't the live game, yet; there's no true competition. Play with the broken ones and say, "Hey, this needs to be better," or "Guys, this template is overpowered." They're the people who do whatever they can to win regardless of its cost. As I've said countless times before, I identify as a griefer before I identify as a role-player (even though I'm almost always 100% in-character, and if I can't role-play in an MMO, I don't play it) or even as a PvP (even though I avoid PvM and solely look to fighting, warring and politics in MMOs). The existence of griefing is a good thing; it's the most genuine reactions you'll get from players who all want to be "the hero". No one is going to be humble enough to admit defeat, and in games without permadeath or significant loss on the line, they'll just turn their back and block you or ignore you. So I appreciate griefing when done within the bounds of intended gameplay using legitimate game mechanics that aren't broken. However, he isn't doing that. He's basically creating an environment where he and a few others might be kings, but of an empty kingdom where no one will play with them. I won't say this is why PvPers can't have nice things, because when PvPers aren't good at a game or don't always win they leave to go to a game they're better at. That principle exists for PvMers, as well. But they've made it so that even the casuals won't go try it and stay in their POT bubbles, ignoring PvP as an option. (Although this is an issue with the game as a whole, with its SPO and FPO and everything else). As if we never think independently and come up with the same opinion - funny how that works with married couples. lol When my now wife was just a guild member of mine back in 2009, the entire Europa RP community tried everything in their power to get her out of my guild. People that caused drama and ridiculed her because she wasn't conforming to their clique were suddenly her best friend. She almost left the guild and the game over it, but I was able to talk her into staying and having fun with us. This continued into the next year when we started dating, and from then on, it only got worse. "You're only saying that because he's your boyfriend." People would attack her, message her, and it would bug her bad. It caused fights between us. Luckily that ended, but it was rough goings.
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Caliya
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People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121
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Post by Caliya on Dec 20, 2015 21:36:23 GMT
It's become so commonplace to attack the person and not their views, the mods and even Dallas don't question it. Toxic forum? Naw lol
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Post by grimgryphon on Dec 20, 2015 23:36:13 GMT
lmao! No...no we don't over-moderate. It's the most open forum ever! bahaha I think the great thing was dallas was actually saying, 'Hey, maybe we might over moderate or maybe we should have a forum that is less moderated. Maybe its my fault because I set the rules for these forums.' Then, 'oh shit, this thread is getting out of control now. guilds are beginning to criticize each other and myrcello is linking to negative comments. we better lock this fucker.' He just locked a thread that showed exactly why what he proposed will not work. Notice he has 28 likes, all from the usual suspects. Those fucking whales have their heads so far up Portalarium's ass they are a permanent part of Starr Long's colon now. I have never been happier that I was able to unload that pile of shit. Even the guy who bought it from me has already sold it off. He lasted 2 months. He said the community was the #1 reason he walked away.
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Post by Mordecai on Dec 21, 2015 1:08:03 GMT
It's become so commonplace to attack the person and not their views I fear this behavior has overtaken all of Novia, and the Abyss as well. Character Assassination.
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Dec 21, 2015 2:27:05 GMT
I think the great thing was dallas was actually saying, 'Hey, maybe we might over moderate or maybe we should have a forum that is less moderated. Maybe its my fault because I set the rules for these forums.' Then, 'oh shit, this thread is getting out of control now. guilds are beginning to criticize each other and myrcello is linking to negative comments. we better lock this fucker.' He just locked a thread that showed exactly why what he proposed will not work. Notice he has 28 likes, all from the usual suspects. Those fucking whales have their heads so far up Portalarium's ass they are a permanent part of Starr Long's colon now. I have never been happier that I was able to unload that pile of shit. Even the guy who bought it from me has already sold it off. He lasted 2 months. He said the community was the #1 reason he walked away. The likes were done after he edited it to post his decision to not make a specific trash talking board. I liked it as well. I think that thread exemplified exactly what would happen in an unmoderated guild trash talk forum.
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