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Post by Mordecai on Aug 29, 2015 12:37:30 GMT
Put your hats on folks (not your SotA ones), because it's time to give conspiracy theories their own thread. Since there has been a little discussion about 911 already, here are some peer-reviewed and/or official FEMA/NIST links on the subject. www.nist.gov/el/disasterstudies/wtc/wtc_finalreports.cfmSince nobody is going to read anything ever because tl, here are some key points: The NIST never clarifies what the "certain circumstances" might be that produced molten steel after the collapse. They later claim that steel could melt under "long exposure to combustion", which is absurd on its face, given that there was no energy source in the pile of wreckage remotely capable of melting steel. Unless of course there was thermite used to demo the buildings, but it was terrorists right? Wrong, it was thermite. benthamopen.com/contents/pdf/TOCPJ/TOCPJ-2-7.pdf In this peer-reviewed article from The Open Chemical Physics Journal, red/grey chips are examined which were found in the dust at four separate WTC sites. "The red portion of these chips is found to be an unreacted thermitic material and highly energetic". www.fema.gov/media-library-data/20130726-1512-20490-8452/403_apc.pdfAnd a little further reading on metallurgy from FEMA. If you read one link posted here, pick the bolded peer-reviewed one.
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Aug 29, 2015 17:25:41 GMT
The problem is, once you debate with a truther, there is no reasonable outcome. Neither side will budge.
Even if it was an inside job, which wouldn't be surprising since the government has manipulated citizens since its inception, ....meh.
I don't believe in conspiracy theories. I think people just go off the deep end, just like we do in this forum, or especially Shroud. We want to be right under all conditions. It's only when we admit we may be mistaken that any real dialog can take place.
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Post by Mordecai on Aug 29, 2015 19:08:38 GMT
The problem is, once you debate with a truther [stereotype], there is no reasonable outcome [sith dealing in absolutes]. Neither side will budge. Even if it was an inside job, which wouldn't be surprising since the government has manipulated citizens since its inception [conspiracy theory], ....meh [ ]. I don't believe in conspiracy theories [personal opinion/contradiction]. I think people just go off the deep end [generalization], just like we do in this forum [don't you believe in what you say, or are you just "going off the deep end" when you post here?], or especially Shroud [how can one even compare casual video game discussion to a national tragedy?]. We want to be right under all conditions [probably true]. It's only when we admit we may be mistaken that any real dialog can take place. Needless to say, I respectfully disagree with many elements of your post. I had never heard the term "truther" before you used it. If I sound a little heated in my reply, please forgive me. I'm passionate about the subject, but mean no disrespect. "It's only when we admit we may be mistaken that any real dialog can take place." You speak with wisdom, and yet the rest of your post is a near-baseless refutation, not to the questions behind 911, but to literally everything that has ever been labeled a conspiracy theory. You didn't even acknowledge the evidence behind the OP, and still you insist that every conspiracy theory is wrong. How can you assert three sweeping stereotypes and then also talk about admitting that one might be incorrect in their beliefs? Give those links a read, or do your own digging, and then explain how or why the evidence in the OP is false. The three links are to a FEMA report, an NIST report, and a peer-reviewed article from the Open Chemical Physics Journal. GMO foods, global climate change, and MK-ULTRA are all conspiracy theories. Are they all fakes too?
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Post by Sicherdraht on Aug 29, 2015 21:40:36 GMT
I don't regard the finding of trace amounts of unreacted thermite in the 911 dust as a smoking gun. Thermite is not any kind of explosive, in fact it is widely use in heavy industry. Welding iron, other metals, large electrical connections and telecommunications. All things that can be found in any large modern construction and maintenance.
Maybe that report would be better read by medical doctors in treatment of patients that aspirated amounts of dust and suffering long term effects. I read the report as to how toxic the dust may have been.
My conclusion, explosive no, building material yes.
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Aug 29, 2015 23:04:54 GMT
Mordecai To be sure, what happened with the twin towers was a tragedy. I was in UO when I heard the news, quite literally. Everyone was shocked. I personally don't care who is responsible. You can't bring back the dead or the past. I won't speak to the "evidence," because I don't care if the US government did it. If the US government (Bush at the time) did it to spark the Patriot Act, I think they could've accomplished this with far less harsh means. If they wanted to scare people of the collapse of the economy, it was idiotic, at best. I mean, what has been ruining our economy more than the destruction of lives and the twin towers is billions of dollars to fight wars in every damn country we claim is an enemy, and making more enemies along the way. Every hour, taxpayers in United States are paying $8.36 million for Total Cost of Wars Since 2001. At the exact moment of writing this, we have spent $1,636,037,328,955 on all wars since 2001. I mean, 1.6 trillion dollars on war? Where are they scrounging that money from? US, the citizens. They are bankrupting us, not ISIL. I mean, the US government ruining our own economy makes no sense. The only ones making out financially here are corporations selling war.
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Aug 31, 2015 23:15:04 GMT
War is what gets the US economy rolling. Defence industries also lie in the bible belt hence the rise of neo cons and their Christian supporters.
US has history of creating fervor for a popular war. The lucitania in first world War is a fascinating read.
You look at expenditure without looking at what revenue was generated back in taxes expansion of influence or numerous other ways money can be funneled back.
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Post by Mordecai on Sept 4, 2015 18:24:27 GMT
I was hoping this thread would take off more in my absence. Nemo, come post about climate change you filthy hippie. I for one dispute the existence of this "scientific community" you unpatriotic commies keep rambling on about.
Sicherdraht, the curious thing about all of the thermite found in the WTC dust is that the primary elements (Al, Fe, O, Si, flower) are typically all present in particles at the scale of tens to hundreds of nanometers, and detailed XEDS mapping from the article shows intimate mixing in the WTC dust. This kind of mixing is difficult to do and very expensive (and much much more explosive), which is why it is never used in construction. The small size of the iron oxide particles found in the WTC dust qualifies the material to be characterized as nanothermite or "super-thermite" which is used in explosives and pyrotechnics. The low temperature of ignition and the presence of iron oxide grains less than 120 nm show that the material is not conventional thermite (which ignites at temperatures above 900 Celsius).
Caliya, if you don't care who is responsible, then how can there be any accountability? Don't the victims deserve at least that? How are such tragedies to be prevented in the future if we disregard their causes? Regarding the Patriot Act, such sweeping legislation that directly undermines basic constitutional freedoms, such blatantly unpatriotic and dangerously invasive legislation, couldn't be passed easily.
Fwiw, there's a now-declassified document from the 20th century which discusses a need to create "a second pearl harbor" to spur the country into support of otherwise unsavory legislative decisions. #ProjectForTheNewAmericanCentury
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Sept 4, 2015 23:12:18 GMT
I was hoping this thread would take off more in my absence. Nemo, come post about climate change you filthy hippie. I for one dispute the existence of this "scientific community" you unpatriotic commies keep rambling on about. Sicherdraht, the curious thing about all of the thermite found in the WTC dust is that the primary elements (Al, Fe, O, Si, flower) are typically all present in particles at the scale of tens to hundreds of nanometers, and detailed XEDS mapping from the article shows intimate mixing in the WTC dust. This kind of mixing is difficult to do and very expensive (and much much more explosive), which is why it is never used in construction. The small size of the iron oxide particles found in the WTC dust qualifies the material to be characterized as nanothermite or "super-thermite" which is used in explosives and pyrotechnics. The low temperature of ignition and the presence of iron oxide grains less than 120 nm show that the material is not conventional thermite (which ignites at temperatures above 900 Celsius). Caliya, if you don't care who is responsible, then how can there be any accountability? Don't the victims deserve at least that? How are such tragedies to be prevented in the future if we disregard their causes? Regarding the Patriot Act, such sweeping legislation that directly undermines basic constitutional freedoms, such blatantly unpatriotic and dangerously invasive legislation, couldn't be passed easily. Fwiw, there's a now-declassified document from the 20th century which discusses a need to create "a second pearl harbor" to spur the country into support of otherwise unsavory legislative decisions. #ProjectForTheNewAmericanCentury *rubs his nipple *
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Post by Mordecai on Sept 4, 2015 23:43:06 GMT
Mordecai: Oh goodie! A new post in my conspiracy thread! *eagerly opens thread* Dodgy: *rubs his nipple* Mordecai: Mordecai:
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Sept 5, 2015 0:44:08 GMT
Caliya, if you don't care who is responsible, then how can there be any accountability? Don't the victims deserve at least that? I suppose they do deserve to know, but how do you hold the "entire government" accountable? Who do you shift the blame on? We could say Bush, since he was in office at the time. But he's too stupid to be a mastermind. Will it bring back the dead if we knew who did it? And what reparations could be done, and by who?
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Sept 5, 2015 0:47:35 GMT
I would think we'd want to know who is accountable for Syrian refugees flooding the rest of Europe. If you trace it back, it all comes back on the US. By installing government officials that created the whole division between religions to start with. Arming people we are now fighting.
I mean, the US drops a "figurative" bomb on the middle east and all of Europe is paying for it and having to clean up the mess the US starts.
Did the US government mastermind the twin tower collapse? That's the least of our worries. It's so far beyond that, how does one untangle a web of lies, deceit, corruption and all the rest, that's taken decades to get where we are today?
What would it do if you could actually prove the US government destroyed the twin towers?
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Sept 5, 2015 0:50:38 GMT
Fwiw, there's a now-declassified document from the 20th century which discusses a need to create "a second pearl harbor" to spur the country into support of otherwise unsavory legislative decisions. Right, but look what the US does to individuals who are whistle blowers, like Assange and Snowden. They blow the cover of all the bullshit the US, and other countries, have been doing in secret. And what happens? The goddamn citizens get mad at the messenger, not their own governments, and want those guys killed.
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Post by fossil on Sept 5, 2015 2:40:00 GMT
I don't have much to say but if your own people in power feel the right to kill your own people on massive scale, there something wrong with not just afew but LOTS.
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Sept 5, 2015 4:07:46 GMT
I don't have much to say but if your own people in power feel the right to kill your own people on massive scale, there something wrong with not just afew but LOTS. Historically, a lot of countries have killed their own people for various reasons.
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Post by Mordecai on Sept 5, 2015 4:27:28 GMT
I would think we'd want to know who is accountable for Syrian refugees flooding the rest of Europe. If you trace it back, it all comes back on the US. By installing government officials that created the whole division between religions to start with. Arming people we are now fighting. I mean, the US drops a "figurative" bomb on the middle east and all of Europe is paying for it and having to clean up the mess the US starts. Did the US government mastermind the twin tower collapse? That's the least of our worries. It's so far beyond that, how does one untangle a web of lies, deceit, corruption and all the rest, that's taken decades to get where we are today? Good. Let the tinfoil flow through you.
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Sept 5, 2015 4:32:44 GMT
No, more like
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Sept 5, 2015 4:33:36 GMT
...and this.........
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Sept 7, 2015 0:17:36 GMT
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Post by Mordecai on Sept 7, 2015 0:36:16 GMT
Okay, enough is enough.
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Joviex
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Post by Joviex on Sept 7, 2015 2:46:31 GMT
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Sept 7, 2015 4:31:01 GMT
Okay, enough is enough. Poor Mordecai, no sense of humor
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Sept 7, 2015 4:33:45 GMT
Shroud's next Grand Tour hat.....
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Sept 7, 2015 4:37:41 GMT
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Post by Mordecai on Sept 7, 2015 14:21:16 GMT
Okay, enough is enough. Poor Mordecai, no sense of humor I can only handle so many memes at a time.
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Sept 8, 2015 11:44:14 GMT
I enjoyed Mordecais discussion. I dunno why it was derailed.
It is good about talking about different and dangerous ideas
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Sept 8, 2015 14:55:10 GMT
I enjoyed Mordecais discussion. I dunno why it was derailed. It is good about talking about different and dangerous ideas Mordecai derailed his own discussion. I said a bunch of stuff, and he posted a meme in response. Then it slid downhill with additional memes, and he complained it was too many memes.
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Sept 8, 2015 14:58:10 GMT
I enjoyed Mordecais discussion. I dunno why it was derailed. It is good about talking about different and dangerous ideas Mordecai derailed his own discussion. I said a bunch of stuff, and he posted a meme in response. Then it slid downhill with additional memes, and he complained it was too many memes. You posted 4 memes and a YouTube video in response to an on topic pic of president Obama as senator Palpatine. How is that him derailing the thread? It was you
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Sept 8, 2015 15:03:20 GMT
Your last post was interesting before the memes. Had me thinking. I want to highlight some things but no references atm.
I think the cold war is very much alive.
A lot of our problems now started with the Truman Doctrine.
A lot of Europe has been blaming US for Syria and I seen lately people claiming US created isis. I don't believe these two but it's interesting.
Shia and sunni don't need much to go kill each other
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Post by Mordecai on Sept 8, 2015 15:40:51 GMT
I think the cold war is very much alive. A lot of our problems now started with the Truman Doctrine. A lot of Europe has been blaming US for Syria and I seen lately people claiming US created isis. I don't believe these two but it's interesting. Shia and sunni don't need much to go kill each other Please get some references so you can elaborate on this. I'm interested. Also, what do you all think of the conspiracy theory that UO secretly slipped a bong artifact into the AoS expansion?
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Sept 8, 2015 19:26:14 GMT
I think the cold war is very much alive. Care to explain? A lot of our problems now started with the Truman Doctrine. Do you think this made the US the world police? Why do we never completely pull out of countries we "help?" The US military bases in Germany are obscene to me. Quick deployment when helping other countries, or our own, seems to be the reason. But I find it questionable, at best. A lot of Europe has been blaming US for Syria and I seen lately people claiming US created isis. I don't believe these two but it's interesting. Looking at the history of what led up to US involvement, which tries to make it appear as if we didn't directly choose it, it goes back to the Bush administration. Just destabilizing Iraq alone, they had to know it would cause problems in Syria. When McCain was running for President, he was chomping at the bit to declare war against Syria as soon as he entered office. Obama has been no help at all, and the nobel peace prize, what a fucking sham. I wanted to rip it right out of his hands. Russia is no innocent player, and Putin did make predictions prior to anything erupting in Syria. But he's a part of the mess too. Add in the other countries, allies, opposition, backing with weapons, communication, military, etc, it seems like a really tangled web. But ultimately, I blame the US.
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