Post by Myrcello on Apr 29, 2015 7:07:30 GMT
Hi all.
Reposting my stuff i also have in the Sota Forum.
Because you can be a Fan of Sota like i am but still be critical on game related subjects.
The Combat System from SotA is not my type of style.
After watching "Why MMO Combat sux!"
Link:
I definitely understand far more the reasons why they went the direction of the current system. "Cost" of development and Performance "Lag".
But as you can also see in the above video one more important reason why Shroud of the Avatar has this kind of combat system: Casual players are a bigger market then "hardcore players".
And actually i understand that approach - you want to make money - you need to reach customers.
So at the end SotA combat system will be for me the usual MMO Combat System we have seen in many other games just with a little twitch.
I also find that they hurt themselfs with the random system, because it is not something the casual players will truly be intrested in. They are in the game for social reasons, meeting, doing parties.
Just as mentioned in the above video. So i would recommend them to abondon the random system 100% and then you have no risk of loosing any casual players because of a complicated combat system.
So they will have enough players loving the combat system they make. It is very much what all are aquainted and familier with. So it is not bad. It is just not for the minority of us hardcore players. That simple.
I personaly think the Revival.Com Team sums up my opinon very much what i think of the SotA combat system.
I would recommend reading all the philosophy they have.
But i will quote the opinion they have on the combat systems:
Source: www.revivalgame.com/features/skill_based_combat
Let's Talk About Action
Sadly, “action” really isn’t a word that describes what most people think of when asked to imagine MMO combat. Oh sure, they’ll see a vast array of special fx and animated sword waggling in the background, but what they’ll imagine themselves doing is pressing a number, waiting a moment, then pressing another, and so on in an interminable “rotation.” Strip away all the fireworks and choreography and that’s not exciting at all,is it? That’s why Revival won’t be doing that, at all.
Hotbar Combat is Boring
When you think of great combat, it’s the rare MMO that comes to mind. We think part of the problem is hotbar combat. What’s hotbar combat, you ask? Pretty simple, really - think of most of the MMORPGs made in the west over the last 10 years. Chances are, no matter which one you considered, that the mental picture you saw included a horizontal bar of little icons at the bottom of the screen numbered 1 through 0, each little box an image of the skill bound to it. This is the hotbar and hotbar combat is the game of managing cooldowns and skill use order in what most players call “their rotation.”
At it’s heart, hotbar combat isn’t really combat at all, it’s more a puzzle game akin to rhythm or beat matching games. In fact, in most of these combat models players don’t even worry about their positioning, let alone actively dodging, blocking and attacking. The fundamental concerns of combat are abstracted so effectively that in the extreme cases players don’t even have to look at the game world; the entire hotbar combat can (and often should) be “fought” by focusing on nothing but the player’s health, mana and hotbar. That’s a problem, isn’t it?
How can you be truly immersed in the game world when you’re best chance for success is to literally ignore it?
That concern is why we decided almost immediately that we would eschew the traditional hotbar combat loop. Instead, Revival’s combat plays more like a first person melee game. While some abilities will exist, no attacks are executed with a hotbar and like any good first person combat game, players will have to worry about their position in the world, their aim and understand the flow of the fight itself in order to succeed. Instead of worrying about which skill to use in which order, players will have to manage their personal reaction times and master the physical movements of the weapons they wield.
Time Doesn't Equal Victory, Skill Does
Of course, our decision to abandon hotbar combat does mean combat is mastered in a different way. You can’t expect to win by simply putting in your time to level so that you max out your character’s stats and strap on the best gear. To master our action combat system, players will have to cultivate personal skills, from the ability to maneuver their enemy into the path of their blade to their ability to identify and take advantage of an opening in order to deliver a killing strike.
Combat is fluid and tactical, from the tense one on one duels of expert bladesmen to guild level engagements with scores of players in grand melees, players will live and die on their personal abilities to read the situation and react accordingly. Our action combat system provides the tools to tackle any problem, but it’s up to the players to bring the talent and skill to use those tools appropriately.
However, abandoning the hotbar in favor of skill-based action combat doesn’t mean that classical abilities and skills have no place. Revival is as much a game about questing for knowledge as it is a game of flashing blades and heart-racing fights.
Knowledge is Power
If a player is natural, they will find the default combat “style” to be as effective any other; for them reaction time and our array of basic attacks and abilities literally at their fingertips will give them what they need to survive and leverage their personal skills… but like any natural, they’ll find they can only go so far on talent alone. That’s when they’ll begin to realize they’ve only grasped the tip of the iceberg and the whole world of combat styles the game offers will open up for them.
Combat styles are something like “overlays” to the basic combat model. Generally speaking, a player can execute one of eight attacks with his mouse or gamepad, but by default these are pretty straightforward swings of the weapons that are different more in which parts of the body they target than they do in any other way, but when a player learns a new combat style and assumes its stance, the eight attacks available to them change to match the new style. A fencer might adopt a neutral stance, converting half of their available moves to different types of lunges and ripostes, letting the player strike more quickly and definitely than the default slashes of an amateur.
Training and Questing Play Their Part, Too
So, the next question on your mind is probably “well how do I unlock new styles?” The interesting this is, the answer is, “it depends.” Remember, Revival is a game about being a part of the world of Theleston. Our systems are meant to be game loops alone, but they’re also meant to help facilitate your immersion in that world and, hopefully, guide you on a course of adventure suiting your tastes. Acquiring new combat styles, and mastering them, is no different. In this particular case, that means that there’s no one way to unlock a combat style.
In some cases, it takes training and research: Ancient martial codexes might point the way and unlock a style, while only actively training (using) with those moves will improve your skill with them. In other cases, the combat styles you seek may be esoteric or arcane, quietly passed from master to student over the generations in secrecy. In such cases, a player will have to follow the rumors of such styles to their sources and find those hidden masters in the hopes of impressing them enough to be taught. Still others might be “gifts” from the gods and capricious powers of the world. And of course, anyone willing to serve in the army of any of the city-states would receive training of some sort as part of their service
It's About Being the Hero, Not Building the Hero
In the end, which combat styles you learn and master are as much a reflection of the type of player you are as they are a reflection of the history and legend of your character: Our combat system is meant to convey to players the feeling and concerns of real melee combat while our training and combat styles provide a way for players to become not just unique fighters in their own right, but a part of the history of the world, as well.
Summary
In Revival, we’ve dedicated ourselves to bringing action-based combat into the world of MMOs, creating mechanics that depend on player skill more that numerical superiority. Our Goals:
Abolish the traditional “hotbar” game style
Create a first person combat system that uses physical location of characters, weapons and spells to determine hit or miss -- not RPG skills
Break the direct link between time playing and combat power by make time spent training and questing unlock new combat styles instead of using that time to ensure someone who plays longer is guaranteed to beat a new player
Ensure player skill is key to combat success
And what Revival vision is i would consider far more "trying something new" then SotA approach.
My opinion.
Reposting my stuff i also have in the Sota Forum.
Because you can be a Fan of Sota like i am but still be critical on game related subjects.
The Combat System from SotA is not my type of style.
After watching "Why MMO Combat sux!"
Link:
I definitely understand far more the reasons why they went the direction of the current system. "Cost" of development and Performance "Lag".
But as you can also see in the above video one more important reason why Shroud of the Avatar has this kind of combat system: Casual players are a bigger market then "hardcore players".
And actually i understand that approach - you want to make money - you need to reach customers.
So at the end SotA combat system will be for me the usual MMO Combat System we have seen in many other games just with a little twitch.
I also find that they hurt themselfs with the random system, because it is not something the casual players will truly be intrested in. They are in the game for social reasons, meeting, doing parties.
Just as mentioned in the above video. So i would recommend them to abondon the random system 100% and then you have no risk of loosing any casual players because of a complicated combat system.
So they will have enough players loving the combat system they make. It is very much what all are aquainted and familier with. So it is not bad. It is just not for the minority of us hardcore players. That simple.
I personaly think the Revival.Com Team sums up my opinon very much what i think of the SotA combat system.
I would recommend reading all the philosophy they have.
But i will quote the opinion they have on the combat systems:
Source: www.revivalgame.com/features/skill_based_combat
Let's Talk About Action
Sadly, “action” really isn’t a word that describes what most people think of when asked to imagine MMO combat. Oh sure, they’ll see a vast array of special fx and animated sword waggling in the background, but what they’ll imagine themselves doing is pressing a number, waiting a moment, then pressing another, and so on in an interminable “rotation.” Strip away all the fireworks and choreography and that’s not exciting at all,is it? That’s why Revival won’t be doing that, at all.
Hotbar Combat is Boring
When you think of great combat, it’s the rare MMO that comes to mind. We think part of the problem is hotbar combat. What’s hotbar combat, you ask? Pretty simple, really - think of most of the MMORPGs made in the west over the last 10 years. Chances are, no matter which one you considered, that the mental picture you saw included a horizontal bar of little icons at the bottom of the screen numbered 1 through 0, each little box an image of the skill bound to it. This is the hotbar and hotbar combat is the game of managing cooldowns and skill use order in what most players call “their rotation.”
At it’s heart, hotbar combat isn’t really combat at all, it’s more a puzzle game akin to rhythm or beat matching games. In fact, in most of these combat models players don’t even worry about their positioning, let alone actively dodging, blocking and attacking. The fundamental concerns of combat are abstracted so effectively that in the extreme cases players don’t even have to look at the game world; the entire hotbar combat can (and often should) be “fought” by focusing on nothing but the player’s health, mana and hotbar. That’s a problem, isn’t it?
How can you be truly immersed in the game world when you’re best chance for success is to literally ignore it?
That concern is why we decided almost immediately that we would eschew the traditional hotbar combat loop. Instead, Revival’s combat plays more like a first person melee game. While some abilities will exist, no attacks are executed with a hotbar and like any good first person combat game, players will have to worry about their position in the world, their aim and understand the flow of the fight itself in order to succeed. Instead of worrying about which skill to use in which order, players will have to manage their personal reaction times and master the physical movements of the weapons they wield.
Time Doesn't Equal Victory, Skill Does
Of course, our decision to abandon hotbar combat does mean combat is mastered in a different way. You can’t expect to win by simply putting in your time to level so that you max out your character’s stats and strap on the best gear. To master our action combat system, players will have to cultivate personal skills, from the ability to maneuver their enemy into the path of their blade to their ability to identify and take advantage of an opening in order to deliver a killing strike.
Combat is fluid and tactical, from the tense one on one duels of expert bladesmen to guild level engagements with scores of players in grand melees, players will live and die on their personal abilities to read the situation and react accordingly. Our action combat system provides the tools to tackle any problem, but it’s up to the players to bring the talent and skill to use those tools appropriately.
However, abandoning the hotbar in favor of skill-based action combat doesn’t mean that classical abilities and skills have no place. Revival is as much a game about questing for knowledge as it is a game of flashing blades and heart-racing fights.
Knowledge is Power
If a player is natural, they will find the default combat “style” to be as effective any other; for them reaction time and our array of basic attacks and abilities literally at their fingertips will give them what they need to survive and leverage their personal skills… but like any natural, they’ll find they can only go so far on talent alone. That’s when they’ll begin to realize they’ve only grasped the tip of the iceberg and the whole world of combat styles the game offers will open up for them.
Combat styles are something like “overlays” to the basic combat model. Generally speaking, a player can execute one of eight attacks with his mouse or gamepad, but by default these are pretty straightforward swings of the weapons that are different more in which parts of the body they target than they do in any other way, but when a player learns a new combat style and assumes its stance, the eight attacks available to them change to match the new style. A fencer might adopt a neutral stance, converting half of their available moves to different types of lunges and ripostes, letting the player strike more quickly and definitely than the default slashes of an amateur.
Training and Questing Play Their Part, Too
So, the next question on your mind is probably “well how do I unlock new styles?” The interesting this is, the answer is, “it depends.” Remember, Revival is a game about being a part of the world of Theleston. Our systems are meant to be game loops alone, but they’re also meant to help facilitate your immersion in that world and, hopefully, guide you on a course of adventure suiting your tastes. Acquiring new combat styles, and mastering them, is no different. In this particular case, that means that there’s no one way to unlock a combat style.
In some cases, it takes training and research: Ancient martial codexes might point the way and unlock a style, while only actively training (using) with those moves will improve your skill with them. In other cases, the combat styles you seek may be esoteric or arcane, quietly passed from master to student over the generations in secrecy. In such cases, a player will have to follow the rumors of such styles to their sources and find those hidden masters in the hopes of impressing them enough to be taught. Still others might be “gifts” from the gods and capricious powers of the world. And of course, anyone willing to serve in the army of any of the city-states would receive training of some sort as part of their service
It's About Being the Hero, Not Building the Hero
In the end, which combat styles you learn and master are as much a reflection of the type of player you are as they are a reflection of the history and legend of your character: Our combat system is meant to convey to players the feeling and concerns of real melee combat while our training and combat styles provide a way for players to become not just unique fighters in their own right, but a part of the history of the world, as well.
Summary
In Revival, we’ve dedicated ourselves to bringing action-based combat into the world of MMOs, creating mechanics that depend on player skill more that numerical superiority. Our Goals:
Abolish the traditional “hotbar” game style
Create a first person combat system that uses physical location of characters, weapons and spells to determine hit or miss -- not RPG skills
Break the direct link between time playing and combat power by make time spent training and questing unlock new combat styles instead of using that time to ensure someone who plays longer is guaranteed to beat a new player
Ensure player skill is key to combat success
And what Revival vision is i would consider far more "trying something new" then SotA approach.
My opinion.