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Post by Mordecai on Feb 10, 2016 19:32:33 GMT
Morde, if you scroll to the very first post on this page, it's dewderonomy insulting Drocis, followed by IM. And it went on before that... to say calico derailed it is not accurate. You did. The shit-talk did start before Calico, but it doesn't follow from that that I derailed the thread because I wasn't shit-talking him. The title of this thread is not "Drocis is such a faget omg," and previous mentions of him are either off-topic in themselves or criticisms based on Baron's posting in the OP's linked thread. That someone veered off-topic before Calico is besides the point, and it certainly doesn't justify future off-topic posts. Mentioning and criticizing Baron F for his behavior in a relevant thread isn't the problem. Even getting carried away and making an entire thread page about how much we hate him is isn't the problem. That isn't ideal of course, but what really is deplorable here is making everything about a person to the point of redirecting on-topic posts back to mindless shit-talking just because the poster is friends with the person being shit-talked. I'm not saying that we can't shit-talk Drocis, call him "Fondle Balls," or whatever gets us off when he has relevance in a thread. I'm not even saying that we can't get side-tracked by our fervor and go off on tangents about how much of a dick we think he is. All I'm saying is that responding to an on-topic criticism of SotA with "well one of your friends doesn't feel that way" is petty, pointless, and entirely off-topic. You call it a derailment, I call it a cause. These are not mutually exclusive descriptors, and the distinction serves no point. I understand that you believe in what you are saying, and I believe in the authenticity of your saying it, but I posted nothing about Drocis. If you wish to shit-talk him, I won't complain. If you wish to respond to my quote, please do, but don't make it about Drocis just because I'm friends with him. it's because he treats those he doesn't like as complete shit. I've seen far worse behavior here, and more often that not, it comes from those that would string a SotA supporter up for being half as offensive. I'm not saying we have to be super civil and mature, or that we can't be rowdy and rude, but if we're going to jump down someone's throat for being abrasive, let's not be complete hypocrites. If you come here and say sweet things about Drocis, you are trolling and will get that response. I haven't seen the term "troll" so severely misused since Portalarium designated all who disagree with them trolls. I'd be upset with you if it weren't for the nostalgia you'd just inspired in me. Surely you see the hypocrisy of your words? This logic isn't merely flawed, but completely broken. We all share a mutual belief that people like 4thelolz are trolls, because they pointlessly shit-talk us. No doubt folks like him believe in what they're doing, but that's not the point. Conversely, people like Myrcello and Sir Frank who maintain polite discourse are widely considered not to be trolls. Hopefully we are in agreement so far. And yet now, when it's convenient for us, we completely reverse our standards based entirely on subjective feelings: since we dislike Drocis, we can act like 4thelolz toward him and that doesn't make us trolls, but (and here's the kicker) speaking kindly of him, or in this case, merely being known to like him, designates a person as a troll. Have we not learned the falsity of such beliefs in great detail from the SotA moderation team? Rest assured, if I wanted to troll about Drocis, I would have brought him up on my own.
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Post by nemolives on Feb 10, 2016 19:42:08 GMT
Baron F is my friend, yes. We disagree on things, and agree to disagree as well. On some subjects, we see eye to eye. What purpose does pointing out that he doesn't understand my post serve? How much do you really know about what he understands anyway? Caliya is quick to like your post because she shares with you a distaste of him (although she can be very civil, she gets off to people attacking people she dislikes), but have you never befriended someone who didn't entirely agree with you about everything? I know Baron F is a sort of SU celebrity, the likes of which we can't ever stop talking about, but is it necessary to derail a thread just because a friend of his posted something? It's not really a derailment in that he's not just the holder of an opinion, but an active pusher of that opinion, squelcher of dissent on the official forums and, if his hints are correct, directly influential in the development of the game largely through no other reason than he has more real income to spend upon it, and that got him more notice from the Devs, especially with regards to property and stratification within the community. Or to put it in a deliberately provocative way, we all have opinions on domestic violence, but if we saw someone actually harming their partner, we'd obviously think ill of them. You phrase it as if he's just thinking about being a bit bad; he takes great pride in not only openly declaring thoughts we find destructive to the communal good, but constantly and arrogantly justifying it, that "it's for your own good Shroud baby". If we were his friends, we might try and fudge that reality a bit too. But you can't expect people to see someone willingly hurting the things they love, and not dislike them personally. People here loved Ultima and Ultima Online. They wanted Shroud to succeed. Baron F makes it quite clear he expects the world of Shroud to match his assumptions about finance and the rightful place of the real life poor in it. He made this thread, and the millions like it about himself and his views by putting himself squarely at the centre of the design choices that alienate everyone else. So why should they stay quiet when they see what abuses them, even if speaking out is uncomfortable and challenges some friendships?
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calico
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Post by calico on Feb 10, 2016 19:52:51 GMT
The problem here, is that some can say we are more offensive here, I don't agree...there are posts that use some harsher words perhaps. But in general, controling the conversation and having people ostrasized from the community because it fits his mold of what the game should be is a lot worse.
Baron has not been called to the plate on the main forums and never will be because no onne can stand up him there. They will be moderated and banned. He has done it before.
One of his alts got moderated today, the one. I wonder if he got an infraction too?
Polite discourse is different to everyone, Baron does a wonderful job of being the polite backhand.
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Feb 10, 2016 20:10:55 GMT
All I'm saying is that responding to an on-topic criticism of SotA with "well one of your friends doesn't feel that way" is petty, pointless, and entirely off-topic. Pissed ya off, eh?
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Feb 10, 2016 20:15:52 GMT
And yet now, when it's convenient for us, we completely reverse our standards based entirely on subjective feelings: since we dislike Drocis, we can act like 4thelolz toward him and that doesn't make us trolls, but (and here's the kicker) speaking kindly of him, or in this case, merely being known to like him, designates a person as a troll. Maybe you need to take a long walk and cool down. So if someone was friends with a known abuser, and they defended that abuser (hey, they have other nice personality traits, so what if they trash others every chance they get), they shouldn't be considered a troll to defend that abuser. Gotcha.
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Post by zincturtle on Feb 10, 2016 21:13:27 GMT
Are they farming serious with this? its bloody torture to level. i didnt think it could get worse than it was when i quit last year but i was wrong rofl. i guess theres always dance parties to go to rofl. Yeah, I am certain they are overestimating the attention span of a typical steam customer, at least for North America. I know that other countries have much higher tolerances for grinding, and that as a Skinner Box mechanism, the value of grinding has been proven many times over. I also have no idea why they continue to test with an experience bonus, when it skews the results so badly. My prediction after final wipe/launch? They will leave the XP progression curves alone for about a month, then adjust them, after all the hardcore whales have their first 200-300 hours out of their systems. Like true naive amateurs, they'll set the 1X rate to be the testing 4X rate, and the general public will be assuaged. There will be some whale spouts, but not too many, and then the gold/dupe exploits will start in earnest. After seeing it happen so many times, it's like reading a script to a play entitled " How To Launch Your MMO Badly" It's not that some players won't embrace the grind and smile. It's that so few will do it.
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Post by Mordecai on Feb 10, 2016 21:59:36 GMT
The derailment is irrespective of Baron F's bad or good qualities. To illustrate it clearly, I'll reply to you Nemo in a similar manner to Calico's response. It's not really a derailment in that he's not just the holder of an opinion, but an active pusher of that opinion, squelcher of dissent on the official forums and, if his hints are correct, directly influential in the development of the game largely through no other reason than he has more real income to spend upon it, and that got him more notice from the Devs, especially with regards to property and stratification within the community. Your friend Mata doesn't feel that way about him. See how that is a derailing reply to your post? Even if someone may have mentioned Mata previously in the thread for good reason, my mentioning of her that ignores that reason, as well as your entire post, and makes a new issue out of nothing, solely because you're friends with Mata, who I (am pretending to) dislike. It would have been one thing, had you mentioned how great Mata was and I felt the need to argue that point, but in this case I'm creating the argument out of nothing in a place where it clearly doesn't belong. The problem here, is that some can say we are more offensive here, I don't agree...there are posts that use some harsher words perhaps. But in general, controling the conversation and having people ostrasized from the community because it fits his mold of what the game should be is a lot worse. The thing is, most of what we hold against Port, SotA, and the like, is speculative. We have little proof of players ostracizing other players, of conspiracies to lock threads and ban certain players, and of secret player organizations that control development. What shortcomings we know of with certainly mostly have come from Port and the devs, not the players. The hypocrisy, the irony here, is that we criticize Port thoroughly for acting on speculations (look at all the BS bans), and yet now we're committed to the same behavior. Even worse, everything here is so out in the open, that there is no question with regards to our behavior, so while it may be bad enough that we've responded to rudeness with blatant hatefulness (an eye for a head), it's even worse in that we aren't certain that what we're responding to is real. Maybe you need to take a long walk and cool down. Further speculation: Perhaps you need a long walk instead? Or, perhaps if we could take a long walk together, we might best realize how the other feels. When it comes to text, we can only assume a person's tone. To clarify, I was trying to write pointedly, not fiery, and only because my experience has been less than successful with a softer tone. So if someone was friends with a known abuser, and they defended that abuser (hey, they have other nice personality traits, so what if they trash others every chance they get), they shouldn't be considered a troll to defend that abuser. Gotcha. Trolling has a specific disingenuous meaning. Let's not adopt Port's nonsensical umbrella adaptation of the term. My reasoning for being friends with Drocis is that same reasoning that I've used to defend my friendship with you in the presence of SotA people (ironic, isn't it, that someone could genuinely believe such bad things about you that I'd have to defend our friendship?): If two groups hate the living shit out of each other, say democrats and republicans, I'm not going to disown all of my republican friends simply because my democrat friends are convinced that they are evil. Firstly, I will acknowledge their heavy bias, and secondly, I'll seek out understanding of my own bias. Finally, I will make a concerted effort to evaluate the person in question for myself to determine my own beliefs. Even in this kind of extreme circumstance, where my SU friends will, merely for associating with a specific SotA player, accuse me of spying, speaking with irrational rage, and trolling, I will not discard my own evaluations of people, especially when the accusations presented to me are based (surprise) on speculation.
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calico
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Post by calico on Feb 10, 2016 22:09:35 GMT
My god, let it go...I'm sorry I mention the Baron's name, this is almost as bad as having to read his posts.
It's not speculation that he treats others who disagree with him badly, it's a fact. It's not specualation he treats those who haven't paid as much as him badly, it's also fact.
He panders to the moderation staff know that he can manipulate them to get the results he wants, he also states that he supports things but in another thread tries to bury the message. Unfortunately for him, he is one of the more blatent ones doing it. Should he not be held accountable for taking advantage of a badly done moderation system? Or is he totally inncocent and should not be questioned?
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Feb 10, 2016 22:14:10 GMT
Instead, I will make a concerted effort to evaluate the person in question for myself to determine my own beliefs. We have each, individually, evaluated the actions of people like Drocis, independently of each other. We are not agreeing with each other to gain strength. We are calling a spade a spade. You call it speculation. We call it reading his words and seeing he's a dick. You don't see it. You say it's "occasional" and other things. It just depends which side of the fence you sit on as to the way you view it. I don't agree with anyone here for the sake of agreeing, the fact I disagree with you should show that. The fact I disagree with some things IM says or believes, the forum creator, should show that. But this. Even in this kind of extreme circumstance, where my SU friends will, merely for associating with a specific SotA player, accuse me of spying, speaking with irrational rage, and trolling, I will not discard my own evaluations of people, especially when the accusations are based (surprise) on speculation. By your own admission, you spy. You said it in your post that you created multiple alts and compared 10,000+ writing style posts. I mean, what is that? That's not speculation. Now, calico claimed you were reporting what we say to Drocis. I could care less if you do or don't. Maybe you disassociate from anyone here when you talk with him. I don't care if you do or don't either. As for "I will not discard my own evaluations of people, especially when the accusations are based on speculation." You're right, I won't unless they stop doing the thing that's terrible. Yes, someone has to be mature and stop. You think you're calling me on my behavior, some of us think we're calling Drocis on his behavior. So in the end, who is right, and does it matter? I feel how I feel. Hate or not. I do not hate Drocis. That would tie me to him. His attitude sucks, and I'm sure he (and you) think mine does. Meh. Perhaps you need a walk instead? Not at all. I'm not mad. I think it's amusing to watch you pop a cork, in the name of "justifiable anger."
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calico
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Post by calico on Feb 10, 2016 22:18:26 GMT
Instead, I will make a concerted effort to evaluate the person in question for myself to determine my own beliefs. We have each, individually, evaluated the actions of people like Drocis, independently of each other. We are not agreeing with each other to gain strength. We are calling a spade a spade. You call it speculation. We call it reading his words and seeing he's a dick. You don't see it. You say it's "occasional" and other things. It just depends which side of the fence you sit on as to the way you view it. I don't agree with anyone here for the sake of agreeing, the fact I disagree with you should show that. The fact I disagree with some things IM says or believes, the forum creator, should show that. But this. Even in this kind of extreme circumstance, where my SU friends will, merely for associating with a specific SotA player, accuse me of spying, speaking with irrational rage, and trolling, I will not discard my own evaluations of people, especially when the accusations are based (surprise) on speculation. By your own admission, you spy. You said it in your post that you created multiple alts and compared 10,000+ writing style posts. I mean, what is that? That's not speculation. Now, calico claimed you were reporting what we say to Drocis. I could care less if you do or don't. Maybe you disassociate from anyone here when you talk with him. I don't care if you do or don't either. As for "I will not discard my own evaluations of people, especially when the accusations are based on speculation." You're right, I won't unless they stop doing the thing that's terrible. Yes, someone has to be mature and stop. You think you're calling me on my behavior, some of us think we're calling Drocis on his behavior. So in the end, who is right, and does it matter? I feel how I feel. Hate or not. I do not hate Drocis. That would tie me to him. His attitude sucks, and I'm sure he (and you) think mine does. Meh. Perhaps you need a walk instead? Not at all. I'm not mad. I think it's amusing to watch you pop a cork, in the name of "justifiable anger." I kind of did not touch the whole "I evaluate 1000+ writing styles" and alts and stuff. But man, that's a bit off don't you think? Caliya you regularily disagree with me don't you? I'm ok with that. I think mordeci thinks he knows who I am and is pandering on that.
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Feb 10, 2016 22:21:02 GMT
Caliya you regularily disagree with me don't you? I'm ok with that. Yes, I've disagreed with you many times, and you with me. Everyone here has disagreed with me many times, and vice versa. So it shows, demonstrably, not speculatively, that we don't just turn on each other because we disagree. If you, or Drocis, or anyone, says things I agree with, I freely admit I agree. For Mordecai to claim hating for the sake of hate is his own fogged glasses.
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calico
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Post by calico on Feb 10, 2016 22:23:05 GMT
Caliya you regularily disagree with me don't you? I'm ok with that. Yes, I've disagreed with you many times, and you with me. Everyone here has disagreed with me many times, and vice versa. So it shows, demonstrably, not speculatively, that we don't just turn on each other because we disagree. If you, or Drocis, or anyone, says things I agree with, I freely admit I agree. For Mordecai to claim hating for the sake of hate is his own fogged glasses. I don't hate the Baron, I just don't like him. I think he might be needing this game to succeed though. I however would welcome him on here, we can tell him exactly how we feel.
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Post by nemolives on Feb 10, 2016 23:02:11 GMT
Your friend Mata doesn't feel that way about him. See how that is a derailing reply to your post? Even if someone may have mentioned Mata previously in the thread for good reason, my mentioning of her that ignores that reason, as well as your entire post, and makes a new issue out of nothing, solely because you're friends with Mata, who I (am pretending to) dislike. It would have been one thing, had you mentioned how great Mata was and I felt the need to argue that point, but in this case I'm creating the argument out of nothing in a place where it clearly doesn't belong. That example doesn't work. For a start, "Mata" isn't as far as I can tell referenced, or posting in this thread at all. Is that another name on the SotA forums, one belonging to someone here? Nor have I ever declared I consider myself a "friend" of anyone here. No offence to anyone, but I'm fully aware we have only a tiny slice of convergent interests, and having done the online thing for decades now, I'm fully aware it doesn't mean we have anything real in common. Indeed there's a thread on that very topic here now, I see... Thus there isn't any assumed prior knowledge which someone partaking in this thread, even a "Mata", could be bringing in to it... unlike the whole topic of "Final Wipe and Lot Selection" which numerous named individuals are clearly enormously invested in, and which has led to many prior experiences around it and that poster in particular for many of us. You ask for information about why we are critical; Don't mistake not having enough hours in a rather miserable life at the moment to rummage around and cross check and document to academic standards those experiences, for not having any proof of having had them. My own proof where I've butted heads with Baron F. about online elitism can be found by reading all my posts again on the SotA forums. As well as my attempts to support the game, improve it, give feedback... not having the energy to rehash it precisely now doesn't change how I feel today. My feelings today are what they are, and are a fact in turn. Whether that view is fair or not, whether I recall correctly might be a decent debate to have, but when almost everyone outside of the dwindling whale community is feeling that way, outside of these forums it's largely irrelevant. The game is alienating almost everyone, and Portalarium should be taking note of what is a huge swathe of experiences. Also it ignores the fact that, if we take your hypothetical as stated, I actually would hold the same opinion; everyone has lines that if crossed ends a friendship, and in this case, someone arguing for the level of elitism of Shroud would lead to blazing arguments that I absolutely would stand firm upon. I've never been joking when I've said that I believe what Shroud has become to be morally offensive in a way which makes me feel emotionally sick; because it comes from a game series which was influential in my own moral development, which was a friend when most of the people around me weren't, and which I kickstarted in order to give a little back and encourage something beautiful for the next generation of gamers... and now it's Shroud of the John Galt instead. I'm only exaggerating a little when I compared it to domestic abuse; any one arguing for that approach, like anyone justifying beating their partner, I would say to their faces "That's a shitty attitude to have and I hate it and if you defend it, I hate your defence." So if some hypothetical "Mata" was arguing for Baron F as a defender of Shroud's elitism, friend or not, I'd tell them I hate that and I wish they'd stop it. At that point in time I wouldn't care if Baron F. was secretly made of kittens. It's not something I'd say "Let's agree to disagree" upon, like say liking to watch football or going to a sweet little tolerant house of lies despite my being atheist... I would feel ashamed to agree to sit quietly whilst someone, anyone was defending "Shkreli is an Avatar". Death to objectivist game design.
(edit, apparently "chu rch'" is changed to "house of lies" automatically )
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Feb 10, 2016 23:47:43 GMT
house of lies
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Feb 10, 2016 23:49:27 GMT
FFS IM quit doing that shit. You claim equality and all that yet attack a bastion of belief. It's hypocritical to say the least. "I love free speech until it becomes inconvenient for me " Take the good with the bad.
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calico
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Post by calico on Feb 11, 2016 0:19:49 GMT
FFS IM quit doing that shit. You claim equality and all that yet attack a bastion of belief. It's hypocritical to say the least. "I love free speech until it becomes inconvenient for me " Take the good with the bad. I'm confused.
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Feb 11, 2016 0:24:51 GMT
FFS IM quit doing that shit. You claim equality and all that yet attack a bastion of belief. It's hypocritical to say the least. "I love free speech until it becomes inconvenient for me " Take the good with the bad. I'm confused. There's a word filter to avoid us getting complaints. Ie the c bomb becomes flower as does a certain religious following. The place of worship for Christian becomes house of lies. It's not a huge deal I just really hate censorship and suppression of rights. As an Australian IM should know the one right our Constitution gives us is freedom of religion yet it's the one that is constantly under assault. Look this is just me and my personal vendetta lol. IM has to put up with it daily in PMs from me lol
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Post by grimgryphon on Feb 11, 2016 0:31:29 GMT
Has the game gotten better since I last logged in five months ago? I still have a $45 pledge I'm stuck with from Steam.
Oh what am I saying, I have zero interest in SotA.
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Feb 11, 2016 0:31:38 GMT
As an Australian IM should know the one right our Constitution gives us is freedom of religion yet it's the one that is constantly under assault. Which is why I took a swipe at atheism. Because if we can take swipes at religion, we can also take them at non-religion. To me, it's all belief systems anyway. And yes I know that's offensive to people. But, oh well.
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calico
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Post by calico on Feb 11, 2016 0:31:41 GMT
There's a word filter to avoid us getting complaints. Ie the c bomb becomes flower as does a certain religious following. The place of worship for Christian becomes house of lies. It's not a huge deal I just really hate censorship and suppression of rights. As an Australian IM should know the one right our Constitution gives us is freedom of religion yet it's the one that is constantly under assault. Look this is just me and my personal vendetta lol. IM has to put up with it daily in PMs from me lol We all have our crosses to bear so they say.
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Post by grimgryphon on Feb 11, 2016 0:34:22 GMT
Who's the fucktard in the SotA poster above. ;-)
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Post by Mordecai on Feb 11, 2016 0:37:49 GMT
You call it speculation. We call it reading his words and seeing he's a dick. You don't see it. You say it's "occasional" and other things. It just depends which side of the fence you sit on as to the way you view it. Absolutely. I understand that we each make judgments of people and that we are biased. All I'm criticizing as speculation are the claims that certain people have armies of alts, hidden agendas, secret moderation powers, and so on (IE the things that nobody can witness and know- not that someone was an ass on the forum), because nobody has ever produced any sort of evidence to support those claims. By your own admission, you spy. You said it in your post that you created multiple alts and compared 10,000+ writing style posts. I mean, what is that? That's not speculation. Now, calico claimed you were reporting what we say to Drocis. Come now, I said no such thing. Were you skimming the post? I admit to reading people's posts carefully, to trying to determine who's who, to maintaining alts so I can post over there without being vilified for posting here, to trying to understand people's writing styles, to having been a member in all the main guilds, and to keeping a record of notable statements, not unlike IM's vault (but less comprehensive). I've read thousands of posts, not because of some intense spying effort, but because I read posts for entertainment. What does it even mean to compare 10,000+ writing style posts? Yes, someone has to be mature and stop. You think you're calling me on my behavior, some of us think we're calling Drocis on his behavior. This is very important. SU was founded on calling people out for their behavior, a noble enough cause. When I fault you for it, it's because I feel you're taking it beyond calling out and into hating. In a sense, I see you doing the same thing you're faulting someone else for (the hypocrisy is what I've been getting at). To rip Dodgy's words, "rude behavior is bad except when it's convenient for me". When I bring things to your attention, it's because I believe that you are more likely that the guy on the other side of the fence to "be mature and stop," something that you yourself agreed has to be done by one party or another.
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Feb 11, 2016 0:45:35 GMT
Who's the fucktard in the SotA poster above. ;-) Hey broheim glad you're back. We got TS now good crew should get in. Tarsallion has a super sexy German porn voice
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Post by grimgryphon on Feb 11, 2016 0:51:17 GMT
Who's the fucktard in the SotA poster above. ;-) Hey broheim glad you're back. We got TS now good crew should get in. Tarsallion has a super sexy German porn voice IM me the info and I'll jump in. No Discord server?
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Feb 11, 2016 0:53:12 GMT
Hey broheim glad you're back. We got TS now good crew should get in. Tarsallion has a super sexy German porn voice IM me the info and I'll jump in. No Discord server? I'm on my phone till I get home hit up the fossil dog
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Post by nemolives on Feb 11, 2016 1:03:56 GMT
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Feb 11, 2016 1:06:13 GMT
The game is alienating almost everyone, and Portalarium should be taking note of what is a huge swathe of experiences. It is hard to pay attention to the negative feedback where the unfinished product they are producing is raking in the $$ still. (edit, apparently "chu rch'" is changed to "house of lies" automatically ) Oops
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Feb 11, 2016 1:10:44 GMT
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Post by nemolives on Feb 11, 2016 1:15:21 GMT
As an Australian IM should know the one right our Constitution gives us is freedom of religion yet it's the one that is constantly under assault. Which is why I took a swipe at atheism. Because if we can take swipes at religion, we can also take them at non-religion. To me, it's all belief systems anyway. And yes I know that's offensive to people. But, oh well. Atheism is as much a belief system as "not knitting" is a hobby... there are some who take it as a lifestyle, but it's not essential to being atheist the same as holding a faith is. You might as well argue that the invisible, undetectable, unbelievable elephant that I know is under your chair right now controls your life... what elephant? the one you can't detect, that's part of the definition. And ooooh doesn't thinking about it just control your every thought? No? Well, that's the level of engagement a genuine atheist has for any God, because it's equally non-existent and hypothetical. Now, the followers of that imaginary construct, they do actually exist, so... as do the Trotskyite hypocrites and fanatics that mirror them whilst claiming to oppose them. But atheism as an idea? You can no more mock it than anything else imaginary anyone doesn't think about at all. And a little word substitution for a laugh is hardly going to bring down the Christian house of lies, or amounts to massive censorship. Silly, but not exactly threatening, and hardly an example of "political correctness gone mad", after all the Satanic house of lies would equally get censored.... and just did!
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Feb 11, 2016 1:39:23 GMT
This thread has gone very strange places.
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