Caliya
Strong in the Force
People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121
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Post by Caliya on Jan 5, 2016 11:17:59 GMT
So by now most of you have probably seen these guys occupying federal land in Oregon. My view is this: The government is being far too "hands off" and patient with them. Imagine if indigenous people (native Americans) were to brandish weapons demanding their land back from the Feds. And yet, that's who should get the land, if anyone other than the US government. And these guys consider their acts patriotic? What nonsense.
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Jan 5, 2016 12:52:11 GMT
Problem is, if FBI come in guns blazing it will just reinforce every ridiculous opinion that what they were doing was justified or some shit.
This should be handled locally, with backup in case it gets messy. Otherwise you may end up with something like Waco.
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Post by dewderonomy on Jan 5, 2016 14:50:47 GMT
My view is this: The government is being far too "hands off" and patient with them. This should be handled locally, with backup in case it gets messy. Otherwise you may end up with something like Waco. I see both sides of this. While I agree that the government likely wouldn't have had been so "hands-off" if it was some other group occupying it, because of the political nature of the takeover and the current belief that the government IS taking away rights (look at gun control, continued surveillance since 9/11, Snowden, etc.), the government is in a delicate situation in handling this. They can't go in with guns a-blazin' and not expect more militias to pop up around the country. While the media makes the potential for full blown revolution a bit overhyped, it still is an act of rebellion. I wouldn't call it domestic terrorism, though. The fact that they call themselves patriots is thanks in large part to the culture created by conservative media and the Tea Party nonsense, I'd argue. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows that while patriotism, at its core, allows for revolution when necessary, that it also isn't a blank check to write off any inconvenience or difference of opinion as an excuse to raise arms and take over federal property by force. We're still a democracy with laws.
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Caliya
Strong in the Force
People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121
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Post by Caliya on Jan 5, 2016 15:14:31 GMT
Problem is, if FBI come in guns blazing it will just reinforce every ridiculous opinion that what they were doing was justified or some shit. This should be handled locally, with backup in case it gets messy. Otherwise you may end up with something like Waco. But the feds ARE doing this to native Americans, and Canadian natives, all the time, even now. Armed and even flying past their borders with helicopters. But if the natives carried weapons and threatened the feds? It's hard to say what the public would do or support. I know a lot of folks that would like nothing more than reservation land to go away entirely. But these people live off the land. Just like they did hundreds of years ago and were pushed off the best land. Can you imagine these gun rights people trying to form an actual militia against the US government? The firepower alone, they'd be so out-gunned it would make their heads spin, if they lived long enough to see it.
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Caliya
Strong in the Force
People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121
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Post by Caliya on Jan 5, 2016 15:17:24 GMT
I also understand it's a delicate balance. But it is about who is doing what. My main point is illustrating how they treat a bunch of white men with guns, vs. native men with guns.
The white guys are treated with kid gloves.
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Jan 5, 2016 15:25:00 GMT
While the media makes the potential for full blown revolution a bit overhyped, Man tell me about it, this is the real problem. Then you gots people out there behind keyboards who just type up click bait all day long without knowing what they're talking about... Oh wait, this guy <---- ... <3
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Post by Mordecai on Jan 5, 2016 17:02:29 GMT
The fact that they call themselves patriots is thanks in large part to the culture created by conservative media and the Tea Party nonsense, I'd argue. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows that while patriotism, at its core, allows for revolution when necessary, that it also isn't a blank check to write off any inconvenience or difference of opinion as an excuse to raise arms and take over federal property by force. We're still a democracy with laws.
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dodgy
Strong in the Force
Posts: 1,171
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Post by dodgy on Jan 5, 2016 23:53:38 GMT
The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerated the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than the democratic state itself. That in its essence is fascism: ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling private power. Franklin D. Roosevelt
You sure US is a democracy?
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jackjack
Strong in the Force
Playing Fallout 1
Posts: 102
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Post by jackjack on Jan 6, 2016 0:24:49 GMT
More like an Oligarchy.
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Post by dewderonomy on Jan 6, 2016 0:51:26 GMT
The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerated the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than the democratic state itself. We voted those people into power. Blame the private corporations, corruption in the Senate and so forth, but we're still bitching about a Kenyan President when it's the nameless assholes we let slip by to develop the legislation that skullfucks us. But ultimately, we can still vote them out. We just don't.
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Post by Mordecai on Jan 6, 2016 1:05:01 GMT
I vote Dewd for CEO.
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dodgy
Strong in the Force
Posts: 1,171
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Post by dodgy on Jan 6, 2016 1:11:02 GMT
The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerated the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than the democratic state itself. We voted those people into power. Blame the private corporations, corruption in the Senate and so forth, but we're still bitching about a Kenyan President when it's the nameless assholes we let slip by to develop the legislation that skullfucks us. But ultimately, we can still vote them out. We just don't. Just the figurehead Nothing changes.
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dodgy
Strong in the Force
Posts: 1,171
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Post by dodgy on Jan 6, 2016 1:15:08 GMT
Australia is really bad.
We have had 2 Prime Ministers removed from office by the Party and replaced by people who were not elected by the people but by the party.
We had one prime minister who never won an election (Guillard) who took the job from the previous PM only to be knifed by that PM again a couple years later. They went on to lose that election, and now the other party (2 party system) has just deposed of that elected PM.
So as far as Im concerned no point voting in Australia, but guess what its compulsory and you get fined if you dont. Ive voted 1 Donkey now a few times.
Make it worse the two parties are nearly the fucking same, debate is over trivial pointless shit to keep the masses in arms about political correctness and doesnt really address the real issues that are affecting the nation. We are just a big dumb nanny state.
Oh and dont get me started about Preferential voting. What a joke
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Caliya
Strong in the Force
People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121
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Post by Caliya on Jan 6, 2016 11:29:01 GMT
We voted those people into power. Blame the private corporations, corruption in the Senate and so forth, but we're still bitching about a Kenyan President when it's the nameless assholes we let slip by to develop the legislation that skullfucks us. But ultimately, we can still vote them out. We just don't. Just the figurehead Nothing changes. Couldn't agree more. But in the US (don't know what it's like in Australia), the lobbies are allowed to get away with influencing who gets nominated and elected. Obama claimed he would get them out (one of his platforms I liked so well), but instead, he increased their influence. Industry/corporations is/are influencing politics, and politicians are industry/corporate leaders, so the two go hand in hand. They get in office to make concessions for their pet projects to make money. It happens all over the world, so it's not just a US thing. I'm not sure there's ever been true democracy. Maybe in the beginning, before media was rampant. But look who owns the media now. Probably about 6 people in the world own the huge outlets. And those outlets all say the identical things. Then we have the nutjobs in the conspiracy theory websites, with no sourced information or accurate statistics but people believe them as if they are true. So people are believing either the rich media or nutjobs, and basically not thinking for themselves if they're hooked into all that.
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Caliya
Strong in the Force
People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121
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Post by Caliya on Jan 7, 2016 23:19:27 GMT
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Post by myrcello on Jan 8, 2016 4:53:13 GMT
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Jan 8, 2016 4:58:41 GMT
I moved out of the United States in April 2001. You don't really need to ask why really.
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Caliya
Strong in the Force
People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121
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Post by Caliya on Jan 8, 2016 12:20:47 GMT
recheck the post, I fixed it
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Caliya
Strong in the Force
People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121
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Post by Caliya on Jan 8, 2016 12:22:54 GMT
I moved out of the United States in April 2001. You don't really need to ask why really. I don't need to ask why, but I will ask why? lol
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Jan 8, 2016 12:30:35 GMT
That was just after the Florida Supreme Court decided a national presidential election in favour for that state's governor's brother.
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Caliya
Strong in the Force
People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121
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Post by Caliya on Jan 9, 2016 14:49:30 GMT
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Post by dewderonomy on Jan 9, 2016 22:14:41 GMT
I should know, being in Oregon, but are there riots going on with those militia that's destroying buildings or hurting people or otherwise bringing civil order in the area to a halt?
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Caliya
Strong in the Force
People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121
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Post by Caliya on Jan 9, 2016 22:49:52 GMT
There are civilian militia wearing masks and carrying rifles, not allowing anyone else into the compound, is not a riot, and it is civil so long as no one tries to get into the compound. But who knows what would happen if they tried.
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Post by dewderonomy on Jan 9, 2016 22:59:52 GMT
But who knows what would happen if they tried. I get that the use of force isn't synonymous with what we've seen against civilians in the last two years, and it's jaw-dropping. But that's where I'm a bit hesitant to criticize. Maybe that's what's scary about all of this, we've seen police brutality so frequently in the last 5-10 years that suddenly, when a potentially violent situation is being handled quietly, through peace talks and negotiation, we react that this is bullshit. "Why aren't they killing them?! Where are the motherfucking flashbangs!? I wanna' see a headshot, yo!" I'm not saying this is how it should be handled, because I don't know enough about the situation to say it is, but from what I do know: 1. They don't have hostages; 2. There's no vandalism, from what I understand; 3. It hasn't caused public disorder; 4. People's lives are not in any immediate or foreseeable danger. It's an armed occupation, yes, but they didn't storm the building and kill or hurt people, did they? Didn't they sorta' just saunter in and set up camp? I think it might be we feel like after all is said and done, they'll just go, "You're right, we lost, we're going home now." No, I highly doubt that will happen. These guys are going to jail. When they don't, that's when we'll have a problem. This is just deescalation and damage control; they're leaving that compound in cuffs.
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Caliya
Strong in the Force
People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121
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Post by Caliya on Jan 9, 2016 23:05:44 GMT
I don't know. What do you think would happen if a bunch of armed blacks were to camp in some federal building?
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Post by Mordecai on Jan 9, 2016 23:22:21 GMT
What do you think would happen if a bunch of armed blacks were to camp in some federal building? They would be violently apprehended and defamed on FOX news of course, a particularly juicy but still small drop in the bucket of racism and classism promotion in America.
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Post by dewderonomy on Jan 9, 2016 23:25:23 GMT
I don't know. What do you think would happen if a bunch of armed blacks were to camp in some federal building? I'm not sure. I'd like to think it'd all depend on their message. I'm not saying these "patriots" have a good message at all, but they aren't shooting up and vandalizing the place with their actions. If they were, I imagine there'd be swifter and more severe consequences than peace talks. It's also isolated and therefore not immediately necessary to act. Aren't they currently being sieged, effectively? I read that they're more or less being starved out. I can't say what would happen if it was blacks doing it, mainly because I can't think of a similar precedent.
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Caliya
Strong in the Force
People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121
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Post by Caliya on Jan 10, 2016 0:19:07 GMT
These "patriots" are dressing in military gear, and more are arriving as time goes on. They have formed an anti-government militia. What should the government do, wait and let them continue gathering larger forces? Let this militia take all the land and destroy all the habitat? Is it ok to remove the signs that were paid for, with our tax dollars, and use the land, with our tax dollars, and put up their own signs, burn the forests for more land, and say the land is now theirs?
In any other country, carrying guns would be grounds to do something other than let them run out and get pizza or have reporters talk to them.
This same militia, with their political views, wants to take away all forms of public assistance, helping the poor and those who struggle financially. But they are all for taking government handouts for farm subsidies, getting the land at 10% its actual cost, because they struggle financially. We, the taxpayer, are subsidizing these guys. And it's still not enough.
I mean, I feel for anyone that struggles financially. But this is not the way to do it.
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Jan 10, 2016 1:38:57 GMT
The biggest problem here is the 24hr news cycle. Do you think any of those fucktards would be out there doing anything if they were't being covered and in some cases glorified? Naw, they'd be at home trying to figure out how to open their next can of Skoal.
When shit like this happens, they need to cut the hard lines, bring in the jammers, shut down towers and just let them sit there and think about how stupid they are without the media to cover it.
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Post by dewderonomy on Jan 10, 2016 2:01:48 GMT
These "patriots" are dressing in military gear, and more are arriving as time goes on. They have formed an anti-government militia. What should the government do, wait and let them continue gathering larger forces? Let this militia take all the land and destroy all the habitat? Is it ok to remove the signs that were paid for, with our tax dollars, and use the land, with our tax dollars, and put up their own signs, burn the forests for more land, and say the land is now theirs? None of this is "okay", but this is political. You stomp folks like this out, and you have a bigger problem on your hand: martyrdom. The last thing you need is to make these folks heroes by sending them to hell at the expense of making the police a tyrannical outlet for the government. Nothing they're doing is "okay" but there is more harm in jumping their shit. Making them look like idiots is more conducive to putting down this rebellion than storming them with grenades and assault rifles. The group's interviewed are stupid, I know, but look at what they're saying: "we're here to keep things peaceful." "We're here to prevent a Waco-style situation." They get shot up, they create bigger militants who WILL hurt people. In a way, I'm almost proud of them. This could have been a lot worse, on either side, and stomping their shit in won't look good, no matter the laws. We live in a tumultuous environment where young adults with master's degrees are willing to pick up arms against a government that's regularly fucking them in the ass. Now put in an uneducated society with guns confused about their brave new world, wanting things to change, struggling to make ends meet, hearing patriotic rhetoric from our government and media (not the militias, in the least), and then imagine people standing up to the government getting blasted away. That'd cause rebellion. Not riots in the streets and vandalizing stores over a black thief being shot by a white cop. I'm talking all these militias who train every weekend, planning to retake small towns and hold them against local sheriff departments and police forces, requiring National Guard deployment on a national scale to put down pockets of military resistance, would suddenly ignite. Who knows what kinds of damages, property, loss of life, and political turmoil that would cause? We haven't had to deal with such a revolution in the modern era. What about soldiers in the military who defect with materiel because they are more loyal to some rationalized sense of patriotism and their homes in the South or Midwest rather than a warped perception of their government? Not to mention, if I was the ATF or FBI director, it'd behoove me to watch the roaches come out of the woodwork. Guarantee you all these militias are on watch groups. They start popping up in the public, our federal law enforcement just got a whole lot more intel on possible domestic terror groups living in the backwaters of Small Town, USA.
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