Caliya
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People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
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Post by Caliya on Jan 31, 2016 23:36:28 GMT
In reading about the virtues and Ultima IV, I found these descriptions:
This part, I am wondering why there was so much objection in SotA having the same theme of the gypsy. Portalarium was trying to resurrect Ultima IV to satisfy angry customers who wanted the feel of SP.
And this, for people like me who aren't religious and follow no religious path, might be a problem for some customers:
But I can understand why those concepts would appeal to people who enjoy religion.
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Post by dewderonomy on Feb 1, 2016 0:02:08 GMT
But I can understand why those concepts would appeal to people who enjoy religion. It was actually the opposite. The idea was that these were virtues that all men and women could objectively relate to regardless of religion. Calico's right about the Virtue system being incredibly deep and game changing; it didn't really exist in games, to my knowledge, in any format other than the D&D alignment system (and that was more personality/ideals-based than anything Garriott did with the Virtues). And besides all of that, "winning" was just embodying those principles, not actually looking for a big bad guy to kill. VI was about solving the mystery of the gargoyles' invasion, but ultimately it was about understanding; it's one of my favorite games. I highly encourage you to go play U6O since it's browser-based, free to play, and gives you the opportunity to play the whole game and then some.
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Feb 1, 2016 0:10:54 GMT
I highly encourage you to go play U6O As I have you to play U5L It is how those very same virtues can be twisted to an extreme meaning, by none other than Lord Blackthorne PERIOD. Naturally I agree with what dewd has said. I'm an atheist and I loved the Virtue system in the game. Nothing at all to do with prostration before a false god and everything to do with self enrichment through a code of principles. To put this in perspective, the main symbols of the three principles, Love, Truth, and Courage are the Book, Candle, and Bell. The Book, Candle, and Bell are references to one of the older ways of excommunicating people from the ch-urch. I find hidden meaning in that, and I find it very edible by my athiest mind
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Feb 1, 2016 0:24:25 GMT
There is nothing inherently religious or spiritual about virtue ethics.
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Feb 1, 2016 1:48:12 GMT
I'm not smart enough to be an atheist.
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Post by dewderonomy on Feb 1, 2016 2:56:01 GMT
As I have you to play U5L I actually bought Dungeon Siege II (I think it was) to play Lazarus, but I barely got it working. When I did, I instantly got poisoned and died outside of Iolo's house. lol
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Feb 1, 2016 3:00:56 GMT
As I have you to play U5L I actually bought Dungeon Siege II (I think it was) to play Lazarus, but I barely got it working. When I did, I instantly got poisoned and died outside of Iolo's house. lol Hahaha. I had a better experience with U5L personally. It was very well done.
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Caliya
Strong in the Force
People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
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Post by Caliya on Feb 1, 2016 11:17:42 GMT
There was no beat the bad guy in the game, instead it was learn if the virtues and live by their tenants Taking calico's basic summation of the virtues. Learning and following (virtues, Bible verses, any kind of creed, or person, etc.) is religious in nature. Like I said, I don't follow any religion (or lack of religion, i.e. atheism, person or thing). Anything that ends in "ism" always has an opposite. Opposites cause conflict. And while truth, and other virtues might be nice to "live by", they are inherent in our nature if we trust that life is good, even when it appears bad, and all things ultimately lead to goodness. But I will take dewd up on his suggestion. Curious.
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Post by nemolives on Feb 1, 2016 15:39:14 GMT
This part, I am wondering why there was so much objection in SotA having the same theme of the gypsy. Portalarium was trying to resurrect Ultima IV to satisfy angry customers who wanted the feel of SP. It's because in Ultima IV you are given a choice between 8 classes, not 3, and you can have all the other 7 classes in your party, so you weren't horribly gimped by taking any particular one. The Gypsy would have been a lovely call back, had it been designed for Shroud, but instead they took the exact questions from UIV and tried to apply it to a character building system it doesn't fit, and implemented it in a much, much worse way because you don't even get the basic graphical set up of the Gypsy and her cards; You could see how your character was developing as the cards were turned... Heck, even the horrible Ultima IX was graphically more thematic, in that at least the gypsy had her own wagon, and laid out the cards before you; Don't let your hatred for Shroud now cloud you to the achievements of Origin Systems in the past; they created some incredible games and moments, which is why a badly written NPC just stood there using a system the game isn't designed for is such a terrible opening in Shroud today. And the guy writing all the npcs can't write for toffee. The character selection questions of Shroud, based on Ultima's Principles, bears no relation at all to the character templates you get. As for Religion, it's already been covered by others, but it was a basically Humanist set of virtues, and most pointedly, wasn't limited to those who had any particular "faith", but was deliberately a set of moral codes that anyone could follow, anyone could be an Avatar. They tried to do something similarly universal in Shroud, in that we're all Outsiders, but again... the writing is of a terrible quality.
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Caliya
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People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
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Post by Caliya on Feb 1, 2016 15:42:27 GMT
Thanks for all you said in your entire post, Nemo. Nice perspective. As for Religion, it's already been covered by others, but it was a basically Humanist set of virtues, and most pointedly, wasn't limited to those who had any particular "faith", but was deliberately a set of moral codes that anyone could follow, anyone could be an Avatar. They tried to do something similarly universal in Shroud, in that we're all Outsiders, but again... the writing is of a terrible quality. I don't know about them trying to do something universal in Shroud. The Ankh symbol is not new, and a ripoff really, from ancient religious beliefs. In addition, the amount of add-on store items that are entirely Christian themes is pretty hilarious.
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calico
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Post by calico on Feb 1, 2016 16:14:29 GMT
This part, I am wondering why there was so much objection in SotA having the same theme of the gypsy. Portalarium was trying to resurrect Ultima IV to satisfy angry customers who wanted the feel of SP. It's because in Ultima IV you are given a choice between 8 classes, not 3, and you can have all the other 7 classes in your party, so you weren't horribly gimped by taking any particular one. The Gypsy would have been a lovely call back, had it been designed for Shroud, but instead they took the exact questions from UIV and tried to apply it to a character building system it doesn't fit, and implemented it in a much, much worse way because you don't even get the basic graphical set up of the Gypsy and her cards; You could see how your character was developing as the cards were turned... Heck, even the horrible Ultima IX was graphically more thematic, in that at least the gypsy had her own wagon, and laid out the cards before you; Don't let your hatred for Shroud now cloud you to the achievements of Origin Systems in the past; they created some incredible games and moments, which is why a badly written NPC just stood there using a system the game isn't designed for is such a terrible opening in Shroud today. And the guy writing all the npcs can't write for toffee. The character selection questions of Shroud, based on Ultima's Principles, bears no relation at all to the character templates you get. As for Religion, it's already been covered by others, but it was a basically Humanist set of virtues, and most pointedly, wasn't limited to those who had any particular "faith", but was deliberately a set of moral codes that anyone could follow, anyone could be an Avatar. They tried to do something similarly universal in Shroud, in that we're all Outsiders, but again... the writing is of a terrible quality. It is funny how close ultima 9 and shroud are in graphic quality.
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Post by fossil on Feb 1, 2016 16:33:20 GMT
It's because in Ultima IV you are given a choice between 8 classes, not 3, and you can have all the other 7 classes in your party, so you weren't horribly gimped by taking any particular one. The Gypsy would have been a lovely call back, had it been designed for Shroud, but instead they took the exact questions from UIV and tried to apply it to a character building system it doesn't fit, and implemented it in a much, much worse way because you don't even get the basic graphical set up of the Gypsy and her cards; You could see how your character was developing as the cards were turned... Heck, even the horrible Ultima IX was graphically more thematic, in that at least the gypsy had her own wagon, and laid out the cards before you; Don't let your hatred for Shroud now cloud you to the achievements of Origin Systems in the past; they created some incredible games and moments, which is why a badly written NPC just stood there using a system the game isn't designed for is such a terrible opening in Shroud today. And the guy writing all the npcs can't write for toffee. The character selection questions of Shroud, based on Ultima's Principles, bears no relation at all to the character templates you get. As for Religion, it's already been covered by others, but it was a basically Humanist set of virtues, and most pointedly, wasn't limited to those who had any particular "faith", but was deliberately a set of moral codes that anyone could follow, anyone could be an Avatar. They tried to do something similarly universal in Shroud, in that we're all Outsiders, but again... the writing is of a terrible quality. It is funny how close ultima 9 and shroud are in graphic quality. Bro, it's about the gameplay, the content, not the gfx!
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Post by nemolives on Feb 1, 2016 17:11:55 GMT
Thanks for all you said in your entire post, Nemo. Nice perspective. As for Religion, it's already been covered by others, but it was a basically Humanist set of virtues, and most pointedly, wasn't limited to those who had any particular "faith", but was deliberately a set of moral codes that anyone could follow, anyone could be an Avatar. They tried to do something similarly universal in Shroud, in that we're all Outsiders, but again... the writing is of a terrible quality. I don't know about them trying to do something universal in Shroud. The Ankh symbol is not new, and a ripoff really, from ancient religious beliefs. In addition, the amount of add-on store items that are entirely Christian themes is pretty hilarious. By universal, I meant only in that there was nothing special about the Avatar in game, anyone could have made it to the Codex and been the "hero", your player character was only the first to do so. The lore tends to say there was only one Avatar historically, an exemplar of the challenges facing people trying to be virtuous, but s/he wasn't known for their prowess at anything, indeed many of the characters were much better at martial arts or crafting than they were. Lord British was always more outright powerful, Iolo was a much better archer, etc... in Ultima VI your companions at the start save you from being sacrificed after an obvious ambush you walk right into, but UV happens because Lord British gets himself into a pickle by being foolish in turn... and the arch enemy, Blackthorn at the end of UV is considered to have fallen simply because he wasn't strong enough to resist the Shadowlord's power, and given a merciful sentence of a random moongate to another world where he can try and rise again. No one is considered perfect, nor irredeemably flawed. In Shroud, they've tried to do the same sort of thing; Everyone coming through the stone circle to Novia is potentially the same, all of them are offworlders; and I suspect the original idea was that all of them could become the heroes of the storyline too, and would all look the same to the NPCs in game... only it's been hamfistedly written so there's just very, very little of that in game so far, and online, there absolutely is a permanent superiority of the Lords Of The Manor. Which is why it's just so, so awful.
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Post by dewderonomy on Feb 1, 2016 17:22:57 GMT
Bro, it's about the gameplay, the content, not the gfx! NO HAND HOLDING. IT'S SOMETHING DIFFERENT. GAME CHANGER.
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Post by fossil on Feb 1, 2016 19:34:24 GMT
Bro, it's about the gameplay, the content, not the gfx! NO HAND HOLDING. IT'S SOMETHING DIFFERENT. GAME CHANGER. No hand holding and fairly close to zero tips. Just enough to go oh maybe just maybe but still come to the conclusion fuck hellz no.
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Feb 1, 2016 23:37:44 GMT
NO HAND HOLDING. IT'S SOMETHING DIFFERENT. GAME CHANGER. No hand holding and fairly close to zero tips. Just enough to go oh maybe just maybe but still come to the conclusion fuck hellz no. You guys just don't get it. It's a trailblazer
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calico
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Post by calico on Feb 3, 2016 0:51:48 GMT
So RG is back in the forums to tell us to refer to DS for specific game info.
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Caliya
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People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
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Post by Caliya on Feb 3, 2016 10:54:42 GMT
Been playing Ultima VI. Analyzing the text, it is written at a 3rd grade level.
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Caliya
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People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
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Post by Caliya on Feb 3, 2016 13:05:29 GMT
So, going back to my comment, that some found offensive, that the Ultima games were appealing to children, and my estimate of Ultima VI is a 3rd grade reading level - take note - Tolkien's books were also geared towards children. This doesn't mean they are not appealing to adults. But when children are enraptured with a book, it is likely to carry into adulthood. Whereas, if reading or playing a game as an adult, it's far less likely to happen.
The reading level of Tolkien (which is indisputably a more complex writing style that reflects the author's extensive education):
Also, not especially noteworthy but interesting to me personally. Most people have not read The Silmarillion (me included) but that is where Tarsilion derived his name.
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Feb 3, 2016 13:41:55 GMT
See Spot run.
Run Spot, run.
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Feb 3, 2016 14:31:19 GMT
I had to read the Silmarillion twice, the 2nd time was a month after the first one. I guess cos my reading level is basically
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Caliya
Strong in the Force
People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
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Post by Caliya on Feb 3, 2016 14:32:14 GMT
See Spot run. Run Spot, run. You don't have to demonstrate how you failed first grade.
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Caliya
Strong in the Force
People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121
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Post by Caliya on Feb 3, 2016 14:38:05 GMT
I had to read the Silmarillion twice, the 2nd time was a month after the first one. I guess cos my reading level is basically Hmm, then what does that make mine since I couldn't get into it? On another note, some subjects/writing styles/level of writing appeals to some people and not others. One reason I couldn't get into the Ultima series probably. And some things that appeal to guys just don't appeal to gals. But, I really avoid games where I feel I'm being talked down to, if it's a ridiculous NPC with a childish dialog. That's the reason I got irritated with the Owl's Head guard conversation - among other reasons. It just seemed petty & childish, not to mention discriminatory. If they had planned to make the NPCs change their tone when you progress to higher status, that's one thing. But since some people start the game in higher status (Barons, Lords, etc), and they are treated the same while living in the same town, that is just bad planning on their part.
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Feb 3, 2016 14:46:27 GMT
I got between 6th and 7th for U6 text I dumped in lexile.com: Lexile Measure 710L Lexile Measure 750L Lexile Measure 715L
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Feb 3, 2016 14:47:56 GMT
Awwwwwyehhhhh, the intro paragraphs I wrote for a book I want to write: Lexile Measure 1310L
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Caliya
Strong in the Force
People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
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Post by Caliya on Feb 3, 2016 15:02:02 GMT
I got between 6th and 7th for U6 text I dumped in lexile.com: Lexile Measure 710L Lexile Measure 750L Lexile Measure 715L I'm doubting the measure in that case, purely because it's not a story, it's NPC text. Short sentences with one syllable words. Or are you claiming the text was more complex and meaningful than Tolkien?
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Feb 3, 2016 15:04:45 GMT
No idea, I just plugged in U6 text from 3 different blocks and thats what it fed back to me.
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Feb 3, 2016 15:15:25 GMT
Wtf you putting numbers to rate the level of text?
WHT a ducking rediculous elitist thing to do. It's no different from comparing penis sizes.
Simple words can carry great weight. Clear concise verbage is an art too. No filler please.
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Post by fossil on Feb 3, 2016 15:29:21 GMT
Wtf you putting numbers to rate the level of text? WHT a ducking rediculous elitist thing to do. It's no different from comparing penis sizes. Simple words can carry great weight. Clear concise verbage is an art too. No filler please. But how big is it?
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Feb 3, 2016 15:31:35 GMT
Wtf you putting numbers to rate the level of text? WHT a ducking rediculous elitist thing to do. It's no different from comparing penis sizes. Simple words can carry great weight. Clear concise verbage is an art too. No filler please. But how big is it? Not very
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