titsup
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Post by titsup on Jan 26, 2016 15:09:20 GMT
Just checking, but you all know Lum ran an mmo rant site prior to entering the games industry right? It was extremely popular during the UO/EQ days and ultimately broke him into the industry and got him a job at Mythic.
I apparently read the contents of that interview differently than the rest of you. Anyway, the interview is 16 years old and was a little piece of mmo coverage history I thought relevant because it was indicative of a community who desperately defended a non-existent game and a funny line came out of it. The game/company were at 'steak' to those people and speaking negatively about a game, even one that didn't exist, was heresy.
Next you'll all tell me a fetuspult is somehow offensive?
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Post by fossil on Jan 26, 2016 15:42:46 GMT
Just checking, but you all know Lum ran an mmo rant site prior to entering the games industry right? It was extremely popular during the UO/EQ days and ultimately broke him into the industry and got him a job at Mythic. I apparently read the contents of that interview differently than the rest of you. Anyway, the interview is 16 years old and was a little piece of mmo coverage history I thought relevant because it was indicative of a community who desperately defended a non-existent game and a funny line came out of it. The game/company were at 'steak' to those people and speaking negatively about a game, even one that didn't exist, was heresy. Next you'll all tell me a fetuspult is somehow offensive? Nope nothing wrong with you at all. It's just hard for me to see how people still defend assholes even after the fact.
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Jan 26, 2016 16:46:25 GMT
It wasn't my intention to defend him. I tried to post some context so people would understand where the interview came from, as dodgy said he didn't get it. I also tried to provide the reason I posted the link, as I felt the single line "A FUCKING COMPANY IS AT STEAK" was relevant. I had no intention of celebrating lum's taking down of some kid.
But hey, perception is reality and if I come off as defender of assholes so be it I guess.
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Post by fossil on Jan 26, 2016 17:06:50 GMT
Perception... Kinda like when an individual loves a crappy game just cuz it hits the right niche. To each their own and to what pleasures them.
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Jan 26, 2016 17:07:57 GMT
Perception... Kinda like when an individual loves a crappy game just cuz it hits the right niche. To each their own and to what pleasures them. Wait, so assholes pleasure me?
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Post by fossil on Jan 26, 2016 17:12:19 GMT
Perception... Kinda like when an individual loves a crappy game just cuz it hits the right niche. To each their own and to what pleasures them. Wait, so assholes pleasure me? Well to each their own , don't need to get into detail now. Haha, nope I don't think you were trying to defend him, or the various buttholes you might seek... rofl
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Jan 26, 2016 20:07:28 GMT
I honestly didn't know that. I haven't followed the careers of any of them, except RG - but didn't research RG much until this game frustrated me and I wanted to know why. But, here's to Lum. Payback's a bitch? lol The level of retaliation is pretty amusing. Next you'll all tell me a fetuspult is somehow offensive? I can't tell you if it is or isn't, because I have no idea what fetuspult is. And yes I tried to look it up. It seems to be a rather obscure name for someone, or an MMO slang. Because that's all that comes up.
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Post by nemolives on Jan 26, 2016 22:26:47 GMT
Catapult that throws fetuses (fetii?) surely...?
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Jan 26, 2016 22:29:11 GMT
There was a distinctly different tone to lum's site than there is to IMs, though the two aren't polar opposites. Lum's site was a great place to go to read about the UO. He was critical of design choices and community relations, much like IM. There were a number of different writers, and they were very good writers. Despite the criticisms, those writers had a passion for the game they wrote about. Not that the people here are not passionate, or were not, but you can see the obvious differences between being passionate about a game in development and one that's launched. Early Lum and IM aren't so different though. He was a good writer and I miss reading his site as much as I miss the glory days of UO. He was every bit as snarky as he is now and it was funny to read that snark when it was directed at the burgeoning mmo behemoths of yesteryear. I think it also gave me an idea of his communication style and personality, which makes his forum temperament often appealing to me. I realize though that not everyone appreciates it and I can fully respect that. I also think the Lum of old would have torn SotA to shreds. Unfortunately, we won't have that perspective, as its his employer. There are glimpses of it though, such as him openly admitting that what RG was doing with the NPC dialogue early on was something virtually the entire team disagreed with.
On fetuspults, I was merely making a wisecrack for my own enjoyment. The fetuspult was also from the Glitchless Dawn saga. I won't bore you with much of the drama only to say that at the time, Dawn, a non existent game, had become wildly popular. Part of why the game was questioned was because people were taking it very serious. Message boards were filling up with rabid Defenders of the game (like pizza man). It promises everything under the sun. Essentially, an open world mmo where every aspect of the world was buildable and destructable. Cities could be built and raised by weapons like trebuchets and catapults.. There would be permadeath and sex. You would have babies and babies could be stillborn. Anything in the world could be interacted with placed or thrown. The game was put forth as a living world without limitations. So when someone asked if catapults could be used to assault cities with the stillborn fetuses, the designer answered that yes, the fetuses could be loaded in to catapults, like any other item. Hence, the term fetuspult was born.
This is going from my very shaky memory and was 16 years ago, so the story is as I remember it. I don't believe the factual details are far from what I've stated above though.
Sadly, drama from 16 years ago rarely seems interesting or funny without the context of the time. The internet and environment around these games has changed so much, some phony developer saying their game would allow you to give birth to a stillborn child and launch that child at enemies would maybe elicit a chuckle. At the time though, there were websites like stratics (though not stratics) that were actually giving these games their own sections which gave them validity.
Anyway, I went on more than I wished. I made a joke for myself alone, something no one has any background on and one that I'm incapable of providing sufficient background to make it interesting. Feel free to ignore the old dude.
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Jan 26, 2016 22:40:47 GMT
There was a distinctly different tone to lum's site than there is to IMs, though the two aren't polar opposites. Lum's site was a great place to go to read about the UO. He was critical of design choices and community relations, much like IM. There were a number of different writers, and they were very good writers. Despite the criticisms, those writers had a passion for the game they wrote about. Not that the people here are not passionate, or were not, but you can see the obvious differences between being passionate about a game in development and one that's launched. Early Lum and IM aren't so different though. He was a good writer and I miss reading his site as much as I miss the glory days of UO. He was every bit as snarky as he is now and it was funny to read that snark when it was directed at the burgeoning mmo behemoths of yesteryear. I think it also gave me an idea of his communication style and personality, which makes his forum temperament often appealing to me. I realize though that not everyone appreciates it and I can fully respect that. I also think the Lum of old would have torn SotA to shreds. Unfortunately, we won't have that perspective, as its his employer. There are glimpses of it though, such as him openly admitting that what RG was doing with the NPC dialogue early on was something virtually the entire team disagreed with. On fetuspults, I was merely making a wisecrack for my own enjoyment. The fetuspult was also from the Glitchless Dawn saga. I won't bore you with much of the drama only to say that at the time, Dawn, a non existent game, had become wildly popular. Part of why the game was questioned was because people were taking it very serious. Message boards were filling up with rabid Defenders of the game (like pizza man). It promises everything under the sun. Essentially, an open world mmo where every aspect of the world was buildable and destructable. Cities could be built and raised by weapons like trebuchets and catapults.. There would be permadeath and sex. You would have babies and babies could be stillborn. Anything in the world could be interacted with placed or thrown. The game was put forth as a living world without limitations. So when someone asked if catapults could be used to assault cities with the stillborn fetuses, the designer answered that yes, the fetuses could be loaded in to catapults, like any other item. Hence, the term fetuspult was born. This is going from my very shaky memory and was 16 years ago, so the story is as I remember it. I don't believe the factual details are far from what I've stated above though. Sadly, drama from 16 years ago rarely seems interesting or funny without the context of the time. The internet and environment around these games has changed so much, some phony developer saying their game would allow you to give birth to a stillborn child and launch that child at enemies would maybe elicit a chuckle. At the time though, there were websites like stratics (though not stratics) that were actually giving these games their own sections which gave them validity. Anyway, I went on more than I wished. I made a joke for myself alone, something no one has any background on and one that I'm incapable of providing sufficient background to make it interesting. Feel free to ignore the old dude. 16 years ago the UO crowd were frothing at the bit for Shadowbane! THE GAME TO FIX THE TRAMMEL FEL SPLIT! Its funny how we are still waiting for a grand game like that. Ok thanks for the background. I should of not commented as I did not know the history. I enjoy snarky (Jim/Zero Punctuation etc) but I cant forgive hypocrites. Lum is firmly in that realm for me. I find him small and petty. I do not enjoy his blogs as I look at them with the joy of hindsight. Plus I love how now hes this fucking left wing twat (oh sexism and racism is soooo bad. White privlidge dick wad) but 16 years ago hes big internet tough guy tearing shreds on people with this smug im holier than thou coder attitude. The guy is a steam piece of shit. Flat out.
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Post by nemolives on Jan 26, 2016 22:44:55 GMT
Whilst I can agree IM's site has been a bit more personal at times... as the dynamic of development has shifted to crowdfunding, and Portalarium now acknowledges this has led to perceptions of unfairness, I think they should have been more sympathetic to their critics personalising it... or just as I say, been the bigger people and let the criticism slide in the absence of certain, justifiable claims of direct harassment. Maybe my own disappointment with the development is colouring my perception, but at the same time, when the disappointment is so widespread, banning IM is only likely to feed wider negative perceptions so tactically it's an incredibly foolish move.
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Jan 26, 2016 22:59:37 GMT
tactically it's an incredibly foolish move. I agree. People from there read here and it is clear IM and the folks here are not monsters. The banning seems petty and I'll conceived. However, if what I propose is true (a backer claimed IM's site was harassment), it put Port in a strange predicament. Ban him to pacify a backer or not ban him and be accused of allowing its players to be harassed (in their opinion, not objectively). Given Port's reputation with both IM and their backers, I don't think it was a difficult decision for them though I do think it was an incorrect decision. It's also Port's fault for fostering the cutthroat fanbase they have. By filtering out a lot of dissent, they've changed the way critics of the game/company are viewed. Negative opinions aren't viewed as constructive, they are viewed as hostile acts on the level of harassment. They created a situation where outspkens critics are labeled as trolls rather than people with legitimate concerns about their funding model, their game, their community interaction, or any number of other justifiable concerns people have voiced.
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Jan 26, 2016 23:10:04 GMT
outspkens critics are labeled as trolls rather than people with legitimate concerns about their funding model, their game, their community interaction, or any number of other justifiable concerns people have voiced. Customer service, they are not. Addressing concerns, they could give a crap. That is, unless it's a whale who's majorly invested. Then they may give a crap. But not likely. Look at people like Blake.
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Jan 26, 2016 23:18:07 GMT
16 years ago the UO crowd were frothing at the bit for Shadowbane! I dont play ganes to bake bread, i play to crush! Funny enough, Lum is A fairly staunch libertarian, his social views aside. I totally get where you are coming from though.
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Jan 26, 2016 23:22:56 GMT
The whole game funding strategy is right wing, which leads me to believe most of them are on the right, though I'm sure some are on the left. Libertarians are right wing, not left (FYI dodgy)
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Jan 26, 2016 23:29:56 GMT
I've thought for a while this game has a very libertarian lean. The whole owning your own empire, controlling your own PoT, being able to wall yourself off from unwanted individuals. The right to be in total control of your experience and sanitize it of unwanted incursions. Paying enough to make oneself the king of their own domain and determine who may enter and who may leave. The community has taken this and built on it, especially people like Drocis who and his desires for more and more control of his town and wanting adjustments to the game to benefit it (and other PoT owners). The fact that some, like Drocis, feel their town is owned by them and not Port. The wrestling away of a greater common game for individual empires and the game being designed to benefit said empires. The avoidance of having to compromise play experience.
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Jan 26, 2016 23:39:54 GMT
Wait, so assholes pleasure me? Isn't this why you're all here? I understood the context of the link you posted argyle. I probably should have commented on that, but it clicked in my head when Glichless came up and brought back to mind my comparison of SotA to Nodiatis.
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Jan 26, 2016 23:46:29 GMT
On Dev+ and awaiting news of 'the announcement', I'm wondering when it might release. Just a thought, but I'm wondering if it will be released on a Friday. For those who don't care to click the link and may not be aware: It's also possible 'the announcement' will come with r26, which I believe is Thursday. Plenty of time for Dev+ folks to place unassuming cushions around the forum to soften the blow.
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Jan 26, 2016 23:48:48 GMT
Wait, so assholes pleasure me? Isn't this why you're all here? I understood the context of the link you posted argyle. I probably should have commented on that, but it clicked in my head when Glichless came up and brought back to mind my comparison of SotA to Nodiatis. I tried that game out after you posted for all of 3 minutes. Absolutely brutal. I didn't even bother with the tutorial combat encounter to see if it was similar. I don't think they copied it, but it is an interesting coincidence! I would have never guessed.
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Jan 26, 2016 23:53:38 GMT
The whole game funding strategy is right wing, which leads me to believe most of them are on the right, though I'm sure some are on the left. Libertarians are right wing, not left (FYI dodgy) No broken might wanna check your wings
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Jan 27, 2016 0:05:32 GMT
There are libertarian socialists, but traditionally, libertarians are right wing at least in the states. Ron Paul is a good example of a libertarian who is also a staunch conservative. Tea partiers in the US also strongly identified with conservative principles and often label themselves (I'd argue often wrongly) as libertarians.
Anywho, the wikipedia quick definition I think shows exactly how SotA reflects the libertarian mindset in its social structure. Autonomy and voluntary association are the key terms that really reflect the SotA social experience to me. I also think this sort of thinking has led to the strange way this game's community appears to be going. Ive actually contemplated buying an account when it goes on 50% discount to witness first hand what happens when these sorts of principles are applied to an online game.
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Jan 27, 2016 0:25:59 GMT
A liberal is right wing? How does that even make sense So we dealing again with different wings aND definitions. In Australia we don't have much of a libertarian movement it's been eaten up. Our liberal party is now a slave to big business and works against its original premise and performs in a more capitalist way. It swings between conservative and progresive to garner favor. labor party is slave to trade unions 60 40 rule of membership. Trade unions are corrupt and just as bad as big business funneling funds to preferred people union heads having huge amounts of money yet ironically never worked in the field. Under the guise of caring for worker they make big money and inflate cost of manufacturer simple sheds costing millions of dollars on government jobs. The labor party is our left and they court the young intellectuals at university and push through with the nanny state idea feminism refugee apologies to the abos etc. Bleeding heart lefties. They call themselves liberal but they aren't. They are left wing scum. Like Lum. Sorry I hate Australian politics our two parties are the sides of the same coin and I'm sick of being forced fed bullshit. He is not a libertarian in my eyes. I'm using this definition now. Sorry for shooting off the hip. australianlibertarian.wordpress.com/faq/
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Jan 27, 2016 0:31:21 GMT
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others."
- Winston Churchill
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Jan 27, 2016 0:32:53 GMT
A liberal is right wing? How does that even make sense So we dealing again with different wings aND definitions. In Australia we don't have much of a libertarian movement it's been eaten up. Our liberal party is now a slave to big business and works against its original premise and performs in a more capitalist way. It swings between conservative and progresive to garner favor. labor party is slave to trade unions 60 40 rule of membership. Trade unions are corrupt and just as bad as big business funneling funds to preferred people union heads having huge amounts of money yet ironically never worked in the field. Under the guise of caring for worker they make big money and inflate cost of manufacturer simple sheds costing millions of dollars on government jobs. The labor party is our left and they court the young intellectuals at university and push through with the nanny state idea feminism refugee apologies to the abos etc. Bleeding heart lefties. They call themselves liberal but they aren't. They are left wing scum. Like Lum. Sorry I hate Australian politics our two parties are the sides of the same coin and I'm sick of being forced fed bullshit. He is not a libertarian in my eyes. I'm using this definition now. Sorry for shooting off the hip. australianlibertarian.wordpress.com/faq/Libertarian has liberty as the root, not liberal. Liberty as in its focus is on personal liberty above all else. Liberty as in opposition to government infringement on individual rights. Our use of the term liberal is associated with the left and is used to refer to large, particularly federal, government. Conservatives, the right, are for small federal government or for expanded state government rights and limited federal. That's just a brief and really quick incomplete response.
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Jan 27, 2016 0:39:07 GMT
Lum's social ideas can be justified with libertarianism because libertarians are for the rights of the individual. Lum's social views would certainly classify him more liberal, but there are some key distinctions that aren't worth getting in to. The key factor is that libertarians are for the primacy of rights of the individual. Where one stands on race relations or sexual equality need not infringe on whether they are libertarian or not.
You are correct though, lum's personal views on race and women's issues are much more aligned with our left than our right, but they don't necessarily make him liberal.
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Jan 27, 2016 0:53:16 GMT
One quick example I thought of. Strict gun control is traditionally a liberalnor left wing view. A libertarian may be pro-choice (typically a more liberal position) because of the liberty of the mother and her right to choose for herself but may also be anti-strict gun control (typically a more conservative position) because of the liberty of the individual and their right to own a gun.
It's blurry from the outside looking in, I'll admit.
Anyway, your opinion on lum's social views holds true. He has been more outspokenly liberal in his social views since moving to Texas from what I've read, which could very well be a product of the environment he is in. Not that that makes his opinions correct, I've just noticed he seems more outspoken about liberal causes since being there perhaps because it is such a conservative state.
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Jan 27, 2016 1:13:04 GMT
I understand argyle I think my wording was poor too. It's easy to inject the wrong word and get a very different comprehension from the reader.
At the root personal liberty is a big thing for me and I believe the ultimate goal of a healthy society. It angers me deeply that noble ideas are high jacked and corrupted and the ever growing nanny state.
Australia is so over governed over regulated and routinely bombarded with left wing propaganda (bleeding heart variety ie liberals ie lum) that I need a permit to scratch my arse with a full risk assessment conducted a manager ensuring I safely perform the technique, inducted to the work site so I am aware of all potential hazards using a toilet that has the blessing of the original indigenous owners and all the while sensitive to my carbon emissions.
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Post by dewderonomy on Jan 27, 2016 2:40:15 GMT
On fetuspults, I was merely making a wisecrack for my own enjoyment. The fetuspult was also from the Glitchless Dawn saga. I won't bore you with much of the drama only to say that at the time, Dawn, a non existent game, had become wildly popular. Part of why the game was questioned was because people were taking it very serious. Message boards were filling up with rabid Defenders of the game (like pizza man). It promises everything under the sun. Essentially, an open world mmo where every aspect of the world was buildable and destructable. Cities could be built and raised by weapons like trebuchets and catapults.. There would be permadeath and sex. You would have babies and babies could be stillborn. Anything in the world could be interacted with placed or thrown. The game was put forth as a living world without limitations. So when someone asked if catapults could be used to assault cities with the stillborn fetuses, the designer answered that yes, the fetuses could be loaded in to catapults, like any other item. Hence, the term fetuspult was born.
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calico
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Post by calico on Jan 27, 2016 2:59:53 GMT
Finally someone notice what Baron Draconis has done. Everything he pushes for on the forums benefits him or his PoT in some way. He could care less about the rest of the game, I think he honestly believes he is a Baron....
Complete hogwash.
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Post by nemolives on Jan 27, 2016 20:52:18 GMT
Finally someone notice what Baron Draconis has done. Everything he pushes for on the forums benefits him or his PoT in some way. He could care less about the rest of the game, I think he honestly believes he is a Baron.... Complete hogwash. Isn't Drocis, or someone else on the forums a self declared Ayn Rand fan? There absolutely is a very strong Libertarian streak in nerd culture, which lead to one of the classic quotable put downs of all time; "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. " Another put down I liked was "A libertarian is a republican who wants to smoke pot". If you want to understand what Libertarian means in such circles, especially in the US, and you've a spare few hours, this chapter by chapter deconstruction of Atlas Shrugs is well worth reading; it really is as abhorrent as South Park (the creators themselves stoner libertarians) once joked; it's a book where Ayn Rand sets up a train disaster where hundreds suffocate to death, just so she can spend page after page gloating why they all deserved to die. Including children just because their mother works as a government regulator. Honestly. This might fly in Sillicon Valley, where Libertarianism is very popular... after all, you clearly triumphed through your own will and superior talent, ahem. And there's quite a few supporters of Shroud who wanted to buy their way to their own little Galt's Gulch too... and for whatever reason, Portalarium don't seem to have understood the destructive, abhorrent, alienating elitism this attitude contains too until far, far too late and they'd offended the wider community they desperately needed; Because without a healthy, engaged, interested mass market, you don't have an economy or valuable products, guys. You know, basic Economics 101 in the real world?
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