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Post by Mordecai on Dec 14, 2015 20:34:50 GMT
I respect Starr and similar devs for being sensitive to the community. They walk on eggshells to avoid insulting people, and yet all they need do is like the wrong post to be skewered here (Envy's OP and thread on immortalizing/glorifying IM comes to mind). I can't imagine it's easy, especially in cases where the motivations behind their actions are misconstrued as malicious. But, while most of the devs are reluctant to say anything that could be turned against them (even when they would be speaking the truth), there's also Lum. He's not insensitive exactly, but he's a no-nonsense kind of guy that isn't unwilling to point to Truth, even when it's a little risky. I think the best way to describe him is this: where a normal dev would give a player an infraction for illegal griefing, Lum is the kind of guy that would be more apt to spawn a few balrons on top of them or teleport them into a hard dungeon. He has a dry sarcastic sense of humor and enjoys fitting punishments and responses, a dev after my own heart really. In a recent thread about the removal of forum titles, one person suggested that the issue was related to inequality, certainly a possibility, but Lum explained that the issue was much less contentious than that: The ability for users to give themselves titles was accidentally flipped on during a forum update. We turned it back off because much like with any large group of people, it became clear very quickly we could not have nice things. The thing here is that, the titles were accidentally turned on and then later turned off after TTP was realized, and yet before his explanation was given, people were quick to jump to the worst possible conclusion: whales, inequality, and so on. He closed his explanation with: Please return to your normal forum drama now, already in progress. I won't deny that this was a bit snarky, funny too, but he was also making an important point, one that is likely more important here than it is there: rampant overly critical (sometimes hateful) unfounded speculation isn't valuable; it's often just cheap drama. SU DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying we shouldn't criticize Portalarium for their founded shortcomings, those things that have been well documented over the years, just that we should do so for good reasons, lest we be seduced by the same-anti virtues that we criticize.
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Post by fossil on Dec 14, 2015 20:43:04 GMT
And this is why Mord and me can never be friends, I'm a troll... Mord always looks for the middle ground. Though I'm not as much as a troll as I make myself look I still do have a heart if you all want to know.
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Post by kb on Dec 14, 2015 21:18:43 GMT
I respect Starr and similar devs for being sensitive to the community. They walk on eggshells to avoid insulting people, and yet all they need do is like the wrong post to be skewered here (Envy's OP and thread on immortalizing/glorifying IM comes to mind). I can't imagine it's easy, especially in cases where the motivations behind their actions are misconstrued as malicious. Yeah, because liking Envy's shitpost was a totally innocent move. After all, it's not like Envy went on to post something like this later on in that thread (clearly demonstrating the post is less of an innocent joke than he tries to portray it as): Taking the middle road can be a great thing. Trying to find common ground is wonderful too. But, if you are doing it to the point of ignoring the obvious signs of ill intentions, then giving people like Starr the benefit of the doubt is not nearly as laudable as it might seem. The guy likened "toxic" posters here to reddits that are beyond racist, misogynistic, homophobic, etc. The guy is hypocritical about moderation practices (the way people joked about trading women for livestock and piled on that goofy Nietzsche fellow like a group of cruel adolescents was not "just joking around" like they all shamefully tried to pretend). Starr is a turd (albeit a professional one who at least knows how to put on a happy face for the camera and not pull a Chris Spears most of the time), but he's a turd still the same. It blows my mind you categorically defend these guys time and time again. They must be dangling some really enticing carrots and making you feel 100% doubleplusgood if you are so quick to forgive their trespasses. Anyway, if you want to continue to see them as saints and the rest of us as slimes (whatever your reasons), have at it. I'm telling you though, Starr liking that post was NOT a blameless act. Rune74 says it best:
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dodgy
Strong in the Force
Posts: 1,171
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Post by dodgy on Dec 14, 2015 21:21:29 GMT
Usually I find morde insightful and I agree with references for anything we say but fuck you sound like an apologest.
Absolutely though I'M needs to maintain integrity and reference every criticism. Some things have been a bit off the hip lately
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titsup
Strong in the Force
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Post by titsup on Dec 14, 2015 22:46:14 GMT
I like Lum.
I think this place can be overly critical. However, in that thread, the thread on a jwilson, I feel it was fair of me to be critical of Envy essentially calling rune too stupid to understand the intent of his original post. I questioned whether the forum would be critical of that sort of treatment of a fellow poster. No one really seems to care if Envy is a jerk. Then Themo associated me with a hate group. No doubt the invalidate me pointing out Envy was breaking forum rules and that there is little defense for the post not being moderated.
I don't think it's a particularly good look for the producer of the game to like posts like Envy's, but I also don't see it indicative of a conspiracy. Regardless, I don't see any substantive criticism made of the game made here ever being taken seriously there. As much as I respect attempting to maintain a middle ground, the trenches are dug and the the allies and central powers have taken their places. It's sad any attempt to remain in between labels one a sympathizer or aggressor.
Sure, I lean on the negative side. I wouldn't say I'm hateful. I've said all along, I'd love for the game to be good. I made a lengthy post on how I sympathize with Chris (which I was criticized for as is everyone's right). I've said all along I don't think the game is a scam. I try not to personally insult anyone, though I'll admit to saying that Envy often acts like an aggressive jerk and that Themo telling other forum members to 'go fuck yourself' is indeed a very bad thing to have allowed in the 'positive community' that exists over there. I've defended Baron F, much to the chagrin of forum members here.
Still, I'm a member of a hate group, a term used for neo-nazis. I'd like to argue on the merits of a game or the company creating it. Here, though, it appears there can be no compromise. I'm labeled a member and my criticisms should not be considered. The fact that I question Envy's comment is feigned outrage rather than what it was, a simple question of the disparate treatment between folks like Envy and Themo and the less marquee members over there.
I've welcomed dissenting opinions and I've made it a point to express myself in aanner the doesn't demean other's intelligence. For that, I'm on par with a member of the KKK in the forumstapo.
I am curious Mord if you'd feel as comfortable making a similar post over on those forums. A topic that centered on the fact that perhaps not everyone here can be associated, simply by posting here, with the bowels of human existence. I wonder what sort of measured feedback that would receive from a friendly and welcoming community such as theirs. I respect that you tread in no man's land, but I wonder about the fact that you can say such things with little risk besides some harsh responses here.
And what value does the centrist position hold in the with us or against forum world we are in. As someone who would at least hope to maintain a place somewhere among that middle ground, I can say I don't feel there is much in it for me. I lean more in one direction and suppose I belong more here than there because I am more critical of the game and its development than not.
I dont hate anyone involved with developing the game or its community. Am I somehow far more nefarious than I perceive myself to be? I see people here who are angry about the game. I don't share the level of anger (despite losing about $100-$150 on it). I suppose finding a place to post criticisms about the game without being beat up on or moderated deserves labeling me as a member of a hate group.
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Caliya
Strong in the Force
People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121
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Post by Caliya on Dec 14, 2015 23:15:54 GMT
They walk on eggshells to avoid insulting people, and yet all they need do is like the wrong post to be skewered here (Envy's OP and thread on immortalizing/glorifying IM comes to mind). I can't imagine it's easy, especially in cases where the motivations behind their actions are misconstrued as malicious. Come on Mordecai. "I can't imagine it's easy to be neutral" is what you're saying. And how does he think keeping a battle going is going to shut us up over here? Seriously? He's in business to make a game, not snipe people he doesn't like. Everyone knows he gave a "Like" out of maliciousness. It's the childish and toxic game that takes place over there every day. Starr has a right to his opinion. So does Lum. So do we. But we aren't a company. We aren't kicking them out from the ability to post. Let them post here and have at us. We can't do the same there. Some people cheer when they take sides - and they do it quite regularly even for toxic posts.
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Post by fossil on Dec 14, 2015 23:21:19 GMT
I like Lum. I think this place can be overly critical. However, in that thread, the thread on a jwilson, I feel it was fair of me to be critical of Envy essentially calling rune too stupid to understand the intent of his original post. I questioned whether the forum would be critical of that sort of treatment of a fellow poster. No one really seems to care if Envy is a jerk. Then Themo associated me with a hate group. No doubt the invalidate me pointing out Envy was breaking forum rules and that there is little defense for the post not being moderated. I don't think it's a particularly good look for the producer of the game to like posts like Envy's, but I also don't see it indicative of a conspiracy. Regardless, I don't see any substantive criticism made of the game made here ever being taken seriously there. As much as I respect attempting to maintain a middle ground, the trenches are dug and the the allies and central powers have taken their places. It's sad any attempt to remain in between labels one a sympathizer or aggressor. Sure, I lean on the negative side. I wouldn't say I'm hateful. I've said all along, I'd love for the game to be good. I made a lengthy post on how I sympathize with Chris (which I was criticized for as is everyone's right). I've said all along I don't think the game is a scam. I try not to personally insult anyone, though I'll admit to saying that Envy often acts like an aggressive jerk and that Themo telling other forum members to 'go fuck yourself' is indeed a very bad thing to have allowed in the 'positive community' that exists over there. I've defended Baron F, much to the chagrin of forum members here. Still, I'm a member of a hate group, a term used for neo-nazis. I'd like to argue on the merits of a game or the company creating it. Here, though, it appears there can be no compromise. I'm labeled a member and my criticisms should not be considered. The fact that I question Envy's comment is feigned outrage rather than what it was, a simple question of the disparate treatment between folks like Envy and Themo and the less marquee members over there. I've welcomed dissenting opinions and I've made it a point to express myself in aanner the doesn't demean other's intelligence. For that, I'm on par with a member of the KKK in the forumstapo. I am curious Mord if you'd feel as comfortable making a similar post over on those forums. A topic that centered on the fact that perhaps not everyone here can be associated, simply by posting here, with the bowels of human existence. I wonder what sort of measured feedback that would receive from a friendly and welcoming community such as theirs. I respect that you tread in no man's land, but I wonder about the fact that you can say such things with little risk besides some harsh responses here. And what value does the centrist position hold in the with us or against forum world we are in. As someone who would at least hope to maintain a place somewhere among that middle ground, I can say I don't feel there is much in it for me. I lean more in one direction and suppose I belong more here than there because I am more critical of the game and its development than not. I dont hate anyone involved with developing the game or its community. Am I somehow far more nefarious than I perceive myself to be? I see people here who are angry about the game. I don't share the level of anger (despite losing about $100-$150 on it). I suppose finding a place to post criticisms about the game without being beat up on or moderated deserves labeling me as a member of a hate group. I mean I don't HATE anybody, in fact I don't dislike anyone because just because an individual is an ass over there doesn't mean I truly know them( I didn't personally mind Temp). Do I point out stupidity or things I dislike, you bet I do. I call a spade a spade, the problem I see is that this whole blog site should have zero meaning or bearing to anyone over there. If we hold that kind of value over there, larger issues and concerns about what they are doing should be thought about. It's like this is the first forums some people that hold different opinions about a game has been setup ever. Guess what? It's not! not even close to some of the other ones with way way more followers. I think if we here have value or meaning that points to signs of not so wellbeing, seems like its a easy scapegoat to blame us here for problems there. In reality if they hadn't been soo amateur in moderation this site probably wouldn't even exist. But in fact it does and therefore they can use this as a source to downplay issues ongoing somewhere else. The fact of the matter is people are bailing now and if you wanted to play the game you could have been playing it for awhile now. This month has been poor for sales and it will continue to be that way moving forward. Either people are waiting for the final release or waiting to see what reviewers have to say. I can't see them having the time or money to right the ship anymore as we know how fast they develop at this stage. Still so many broken ideas that need lots of fleshing out. As I stated along time ago either they have a brilliant singleplayer game waiting, to give us all here the big fuck you. Or the game is in very poor shape moving forward, guess we will wait and see. I just have a feeling the official release will have to happen sooner then later and without implementing singleplayer to see what kind of issues pop up. I don't believe it is that far along with the NPC dialog issues and just a pile of things that need to be working properly before they can actually get the singleplayer to work.
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dodgy
Strong in the Force
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Lum
Dec 14, 2015 23:29:36 GMT
via mobile
Caliya likes this
Post by dodgy on Dec 14, 2015 23:29:36 GMT
I think they are a pack of has beens who think they are relevant and progressive.
When IM brought that stupid lum story bout the black chik and him crying I fuckin vomited.
Hot tip Mr look at how progressive I am. If you don't care about race then you don't fuckin see it in the first place. You PC hypocritical fuckstain.
It's all bullshit. Gamer gate, feminism, racism all this pointless online babble all to make him seem like a good hearted warm chap that's some how more enlightened then the rest of us.
Truth is they are just as petty and pathetic as the rest of us as you can see by their petty likes in starrschlong case.
We are pathetic coz I've seen some fuckin out there threads in here that makes us like we are on a witch hunt . Let's dial it back, stick to facts and make Porta accountable.
On another note there is a new wanker in the pod who likes hinting at his huge disposable income. I'll give you a hint. He commissioned an artist for his avatar or so he claims.
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Post by Bubonic on Dec 14, 2015 23:54:46 GMT
I'm fairly certain Lum hates me.
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titsup
Strong in the Force
Posts: 819
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Post by titsup on Dec 15, 2015 0:42:27 GMT
I'm fairly certain Lum hates me. Its hard to say because I don't know your personal interaction with him. He can come off like that, but I don't think he is truly like that. I think he is genuinely passionate about his work and his sarcasm can definitely come off as dickish. He cares alot about his product, and I think his pride gets in the way of accepting criticism publicly. He's much more likely to defend their work than he is to acknowledge design questions and discuss them openly with the community. However, I like the fact that he at least seems to speak with the community and I think his posts are actually reflective of his feelings and not veiled PR stuff. Or, he could just hate you.
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Dec 15, 2015 0:43:18 GMT
So, to me Lum would be more credible if he weren't actively involved in ripping everyone off with a developer and higher pledge with the NPC creation issue.
But he is involved in that.
As for Envy's thread I don't really care, it isn't like they would ever put anything in the game that references me because the last thing they would ever do is recognise me on any level let alone that. They don't have the balls to really do it either. Besides if Envy actually wanted it done it would be talked about behind closed doors where the rest of the sota plebs had no insight or influence, just like everything else!
They just trolling us for a change, and well it seems,
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Post by Mordecai on Dec 15, 2015 0:52:34 GMT
Kb, I beg you to reconsider and reread my post (though a little forum PvP should bring in readers). My intent was merely to point out that Lum, in the face of potentially great criticism, made a bold public choice largely in the name of Truth. I pointed this incident out not to "defend Port", but rather to emphasize the importance of not assuming that we know the 'whys' behind an action. However in doing exactly that with my OP, you have exemplified the shortcomings associated with such behavior (so I suppose I owe you some of those secret pixels that you assume I must be getting). Yeah, because liking Envy's shitpost was a totally innocent move. You said it, not me. If you care to know my personal opinion then know this: not only did I find Envy's behavior in that thread both inflammatory and inappropriate, but I also believe that Starr liking the OP was inappropriate and unprofessional. But, if you are doing it to the point of ignoring the obvious signs of ill intentions... Doing what? Yes, I often take the middle road, but that is not what I am doing here. Here I am speaking from common-ground, ground that all can share, regardless of their opinion of SotA. I am making a case that all people should take Lum's lesson seriously, that we ought not assume that we know the 'whys' behind an action. you want to continue to see them as saints and the rest of us as slimes No Kuno Brauer, I have never said such a thing and you do not know how I see nor how I want to see anyone. You may conjecture all you like, but if you did know how I see, you would know that my respect is given irrespective of which side of the proverbial fence a person occupies. Such is why I post on both sites, why I argue against SotA with people there, why I argue for SotA with people here, and why I acknowledge good deeds, even if they are committed by devs. They must be dangling some really enticing carrots and making you feel 100% doubleplusgood if you are so quick to forgive their trespasses. You assume that I forgive Portalarium, merely because I have the capacity to acknowledge their staff's good actions on occasion. Is your hatred for Portalarium so great that, when you try and rationalize your assumption, you cannot conceive of any other way? Must the only explanation for speaking kindly of someone you so feverishly hate be that I am a whale in disguise talking them up in return for special pixels? No, the reality is this: like you, I am jaded such that I will likely never play SotA again, but my hatred is not so great as to render me blind to any good actions their employees may perform. I am pointing out good in Lum's behavior as a dev, not because Port has never done wrong by me, nor because I want to talk them up here, nor because I forgive them, and not even because Lum personally has never done wrong by me, but rather because I see a valuable message in his comment. You have, with commendable passion, asserted my intentions, my motivations, and my perceptions, that I forgive Portalarium, that I approve of Starr's like, and that I must be receiving special carrots in return for such forgiveness, but on all accounts you have done so inaccurately (is this what it feels like, Lum?). It is ironic that, in a thread cautioning against assuming the 'whys' behind actions, you have done exactly that.
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Lum
Dec 15, 2015 1:08:45 GMT
Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Dec 15, 2015 1:08:45 GMT
Bloody mobile devices cutting me off. Also Bubonic, didn't you and or Joviex create Lum a pretty decent system for the input of text? Aim was to allow us backers to complete the stretch goal associated with develepor+ pledges? Does Lum use that system so that he and enderandrew can input text into NPCs now, or did they toss it aside like the framework that was built by Joviex to accept crowdfunded assets.
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Lum
Dec 15, 2015 1:14:43 GMT
Post by Mordecai on Dec 15, 2015 1:14:43 GMT
Took me so long to write that last post that I missed the last 4 or 5. I am curious Mord if you'd feel as comfortable making a similar post over on those forums. A topic that centered on the fact that perhaps not everyone here can be associated, simply by posting here, with the bowels of human existence. No, I would not be as comfortable doing that. Over there I am still seen by some as an ebil troll by association, whereas here I'm seldom accused of being a "whale". Here, there are only a few posters, all of which I know and like. Over there, most everyone I know has since sold their account or otherwise quit. Perhaps that will be my next endeavor though, to post what you mentioned there... "I can't imagine it's easy to be neutral" is what you're saying. Thank you for understanding me Caliya. Just as people here often struggle with being neutral despite their misgivings with Port, so too might people over there struggle with being neutral as a result of their misgivings with SU or IM. And how does he think keeping a battle going is going to shut us up over here? It doesn't (and I hope he doesn't think that). I'm not carrying water for Starr (though I'll admit that I think his like has been blown out of proportion), and so I would never argue in favor of "keeping a battle going." I cannot defend Starr's like because I do not agree with it. But I want to point out that, Starr liked a post that we found mildly malicious. This is cited here as unprofessional, immature, and petty. Imagine if he had, instead of liking that post, replied to one of IM's claims of racism like this? Hot tip Mr look at how progressive I am. If you don't care about race then you don't fuckin see it in the first place. You PC hypocritical fuckstain.Sure, Starr's job is to be great and all that and we're just players, but still, maybe we're over-reacting to his like? I'm fairly certain Lum hates me. Lmao, Bubonic, this is the wrong forum. You don't post here
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Post by Bubonic on Dec 15, 2015 1:17:32 GMT
Bloody mobile devices cutting me off. Also Bubonic , didn't you and or Joviex create Lum a pretty decent system for the input of text? Aim was to allow us backers to complete the stretch goal associated with develepor+ pledges? Does Lum use that system so that he and enderandrew can input text into NPCs now, or did they toss it aside like the framework that was built by Joviex to accept crowdfunded assets. I wasn't involved with any NPC dialogue stuff. Its the crowdfunded asset framework that was designed by me, and joviex was coding for it.
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titsup
Strong in the Force
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Post by titsup on Dec 15, 2015 1:19:09 GMT
So, to me Lum would be more credible if he weren't actively involved in ripping everyone off with a developer and higher pledge with the NPC creation issue. But he is involved in that. At one point, Lum was clear in that he was attempting to do the impossible with he dialogue system. He said, from my memory, he was in essence trying to replicate a system that was better than Siri, which had hundreds of millions of R&D money behind it, with virtually nothing. The reason I bring that up is, I'm not sure how responsible Lum is for promises made. Richard seems like the kind of guy who thinks big initially then hands that work off onto other people to do. I can certainly envision a scenario where Richard said 'Let's promise this to backers' then tasked Lum with making an absurd task happen. Not saying I know that's what did happen, but given Lum's statement about the dialogue system, I see that more likely than Lum up and deciding to fuck people over. He may have been the poor sap who had to level with the fact that 'this is not going to happen, lets do what we can'. I can respect being the guy who actually has to perform the dreamer's dream and bring it down to reality and being labeled a prick over the watered down results, if that's the case.
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Dec 15, 2015 1:49:45 GMT
So, to me Lum would be more credible if he weren't actively involved in ripping everyone off with a developer and higher pledge with the NPC creation issue. But he is involved in that. At one point, Lum was clear in that he was attempting to do the impossible with he dialogue system. He said, from my memory, he was in essence trying to replicate a system that was better than Siri, which had hundreds of millions of R&D money behind it, with virtually nothing. The reason I bring that up is, I'm not sure how responsible Lum is for promises made. Richard seems like the kind of guy who thinks big initially then hands that work off onto other people to do. I can certainly envision a scenario where Richard said 'Let's promise this to backers' then tasked Lum with making an absurd task happen. Not saying I know that's what did happen, but given Lum's statement about the dialogue system, I see that more likely than Lum up and deciding to fuck people over. He may have been the poor sap who had to level with the fact that 'this is not going to happen, lets do what we can'. I can respect being the guy who actually has to perform the dreamer's dream and bring it down to reality and being labeled a prick over the watered down results, if that's the case. I can see that happening, I can see RG telling Starr all his dreams for the Ultimate RPG. It is then Starr's job to manage that dream down to the team which includes Lum. Lum will tell Starr what is and isn't possible with what he has and Starr will then change things to better suit RG's dream or cut things to divert over to POTs crushing RG's dream. I imagine that is how it works. I don't think Lum is out to maliciously screw anyone over in terms of the dialogue. What I didn't pay for was dialogue intelligence better than Siri, that was never a thing. What I paid for was to create an NPC I can't do that, while enderandrew and Lum get to write all of them. That is the core of my problem with that issue, it is probably not Lums fault directly but he is close to the issue and "actively involved" in it so takes some splash damage
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titsup
Strong in the Force
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Post by titsup on Dec 15, 2015 2:38:20 GMT
At one point, Lum was clear in that he was attempting to do the impossible with he dialogue system. He said, from my memory, he was in essence trying to replicate a system that was better than Siri, which had hundreds of millions of R&D money behind it, with virtually nothing. The reason I bring that up is, I'm not sure how responsible Lum is for promises made. Richard seems like the kind of guy who thinks big initially then hands that work off onto other people to do. I can certainly envision a scenario where Richard said 'Let's promise this to backers' then tasked Lum with making an absurd task happen. Not saying I know that's what did happen, but given Lum's statement about the dialogue system, I see that more likely than Lum up and deciding to fuck people over. He may have been the poor sap who had to level with the fact that 'this is not going to happen, lets do what we can'. I can respect being the guy who actually has to perform the dreamer's dream and bring it down to reality and being labeled a prick over the watered down results, if that's the case. I can see that happening, I can see RG telling Starr all his dreams for the Ultimate RPG. It is then Starr's job to manage that dream down to the team which includes Lum. Lum will tell Starr what is and isn't possible with what he has and Starr will then change things to better suit RG's dream or cut things to divert over to POTs crushing RG's dream. I imagine that is how it works. I don't think Lum is out to maliciously screw anyone over in terms of the dialogue. What I didn't pay for was dialogue intelligence better than Siri, that was never a thing. What I paid for was to create an NPC I can't do that, while enderandrew and Lum get to write all of them. That is the core of my problem with that issue, it is probably not Lums fault directly but he is close to the issue and "actively involved" in it so takes some splash damage Point taken and I agree. I don't think I explained the dialogue thing well. Lum essentially said in an early hangout that almost the entire team was against the dialogue as it was because it was nearly impossible and that it effectively required a Siri level intelligence that was impossible to pull off. However, RG was insistent and because he was insistent, that's what they had to create. That's more what I meant. Lum and the team voiced their opposition to the system as RG has envisioned it, enough so that he stated the fact on a hangout, but they were overridden by RGs insistence. I'd love to go back and find it, but no way am I sifting through all those hangouts and I believe my memory is close enough to the point Lum made. He was surprisingly candid, though briefly, about he and the majority of the team's disagreement with RG over the dialogue system's feasibility. It was his job, he said it wouldn't work, RG said tough that's how I want it and so that's what you get. I understand though that none of it should absolve the people responsible for a system from taking flack when that system doesn't function. Its their job to make it work, whether under RGs thumb or not.
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Post by fossil on Dec 15, 2015 2:43:12 GMT
I can see that happening, I can see RG telling Starr all his dreams for the Ultimate RPG. It is then Starr's job to manage that dream down to the team which includes Lum. Lum will tell Starr what is and isn't possible with what he has and Starr will then change things to better suit RG's dream or cut things to divert over to POTs crushing RG's dream. I imagine that is how it works. I don't think Lum is out to maliciously screw anyone over in terms of the dialogue. What I didn't pay for was dialogue intelligence better than Siri, that was never a thing. What I paid for was to create an NPC I can't do that, while enderandrew and Lum get to write all of them. That is the core of my problem with that issue, it is probably not Lums fault directly but he is close to the issue and "actively involved" in it so takes some splash damage Point taken and I agree. I don't think I explained the dialogue thing well. Lum essentially said in an early hangout that almost the entire team was against the dialogue as it was because it was nearly impossible and that it effectively required a Siri level intelligence that was impossible to pull off. However, RG was insistent and because he was insistent, that's what they had to create. That's more what I meant. Lum and the team voiced their opposition to the system as RG has envisioned it, enough so that he stated the fact on a hangout, but they were overridden by RGs insistence. I'd love to go back and find it, but no way am I sifting through all those hangouts and I believe my memory is close enough to the point Lum made. He was surprisingly candid, though briefly, about he and the majority of the team's disagreement with RG over the dialogue system's feasibility. It was his job, he said it wouldn't work, RG said tough that's how I want it and so that's what you get. I understand though that none of it should absolve the people responsible for a system from taking flack when that system doesn't function. Its their job to make it work, whether under RGs thumb or not. Is it even worth the effort to search anymore?
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Post by dewderonomy on Dec 15, 2015 3:50:30 GMT
Here, there are only a few posters, all of which I know and like. I think they are a pack of has beens who think they are relevant and progressive. Agreed. I was a bit of a Lord British fanboy until this. All this bullshit woke me up to the reality that he really wasn't all that and a bag of potato chips. Usually I find morde insightful and I agree with references for anything we say but fuck you sound like an apologest. Absolutely though I'M needs to maintain integrity and reference every criticism. Some things have been a bit off the hip lately Also agreed. But I think that might be the point: Anyway, if you want to continue to see them as saints and the rest of us as slimes (whatever your reasons), have at it. I'm telling you though, Starr liking that post was NOT a blameless act. Mordecai isn't saying he disagrees with what we do here, or even necessarily how we do it (for the most part), but that we need to remember why we were doing it in the first place. This was a place that allowed us to do what SotA promised we could if we gave them money: talk about the game, help it grow, build a community and make a great experience. IM had to do that on the burning embers of what's left of this shit show Portalarium has wrought. He doesn't have to agree with everything said to still criticize SotA fairly. SU DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying we shouldn't criticize Portalarium for their founded shortcomings, those things that have been well documented over the years, just that we should do so for good reasons, lest we be seduced by the same-anti virtues that we criticize. However, there are still those of us who believe they have crossed a threshold beyond forgiveness, and simply cannot be redeemed by anything at this point. No practical response to what happens on a seemingly weekly basis exists that will allow them to recover their dignity as industry leads and trailblazing developers. They are has-beens. They are sarcastic twats without the humor to entertain and the fidelity to criticize. In short, the ire I feel towards the bullshit EA does pales in comparison to what Portalarium has done. I'm no longer here to offer critiques on this game in a vain effort to make it better; I made that a part-time job for two months to no avail. I'm now here to watch New Britannia burn, and to do so in excellent company.
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Dec 15, 2015 4:17:51 GMT
I'm no longer here to offer critiques on this game in a vain effort to make it better; I made that a part-time job for two months to no avail. I'm now here to watch New Britannia burn, and to do so in excellent company. Lawl. Go inside...Tell them...You're the dewderonomy, muahahahahaha.
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Lum
Dec 15, 2015 4:18:33 GMT
Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Dec 15, 2015 4:18:33 GMT
Some things have been a bit off the hip lately What'd I cock up now?
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Post by kb on Dec 15, 2015 7:54:54 GMT
Kb, I beg you to reconsider and reread my post (though a little forum PvP should bring in readers). I am sorry, Mordecai , for taking what you were saying out of context and embodying your point. Also, I am sorry and was wrong for unfairly ascribing to you behaviors and thoughts that you clearly don't have. No excuses, just my apologies for flying off the handle. You are correct that I let my hate for Port cloud everything now. I really just don't have the patience any more to give them the benefit of the doubt after they offered me no such courtesy. I realize in a world where we all live with an "eye for an eye" mentality, we are all left blind, and I have failed to distance myself from this game on a few occasions and maybe it is time I do so permanently. I just have a hard time not posting here because I actually think a lot of you are smart, good people and you are all definitely the type of crew it would be fun to play games like Mount & Blade 2, or Gloria Victis, or whatever else comes out eventually that scratches my medieval/renaissance pvp itch. I won't belabor this point, because I agree with everything you are saying about Lum and about me and about how I reacted to you. I am sorry for doing you wrong and hope you can understand it is not really a problem I have with you (it is all a problem I have with myself). I hope you rest easy knowing that you, and posters like titsup , bring a lot to the community here. Despite how harsh and unreasonable I might seem, I am glad there are voices like yours here to call some of us (like me) on our bullshit. The only defense I'd offer for myself, feeble though it is, is if people really read carefully through the things I post here, there will be many examples of me giving the devs credit where credit is due (it's just they are often overshadowed by my overt hostility). I know that isn't much, but I still contend that some of the points I make, though crudely stated and unyielding in their ferocity, are fair points that deserve considering despite their speaker. However, like I've alluded to before, there isn't much that keeps me here except for you fine people and I really feel it is better for myself and the credibility of this place if I dial it back as much as I can. Still, as much as you might disagree, I am no Sith. I might deal in absolutes and appear hopeless, but there is still some good in me yet. Anyway, fwiw, I am sorry to you and to everybody for being such a mad animal at times who gives credence to the nastiness directed at SU by the official forums. Regardless of what all of them over there think of all of you over here, this place is refreshing because people can say (more or less) what they will and the validity of their arguments either stand on their own merits or shrivel on the vine. This is how it should be with any forum and was all I was ever hoping for from the SotA forum. I'm glad there are the titsup and Mordecai and myrcello 's of the world to maintain some baseline of sanity in such an insane world. Wishing you and the rest all of the best. Despite all appearances to the contrary, I don't even hate the idea or devs of SotA--that much (but the execution has been 100% terrible). In closing, I leave you all a wish that you and this sewer of Buc's Den sail on, sail on, you mighty ship of state, to the shores of Need, past the reefs of Greed, through the squalls of Hate.... I'm sentimental, if you know what I mean I love the (dream of SotA) but I can't stand the scene. And I'm neither left or right I'm just staying home tonight, getting lost in that hopeless little screen. But I'm stubborn as those garbage bags that Time cannot decay, I'm junk but I'm still holding up this little wild bouquet
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Joviex
Strong in the Force
PERMABANNED
Posts: 123
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Post by Joviex on Dec 15, 2015 8:00:05 GMT
Bloody mobile devices cutting me off. Also Bubonic , didn't you and or Joviex create Lum a pretty decent system for the input of text? Aim was to allow us backers to complete the stretch goal associated with develepor+ pledges? Does Lum use that system so that he and enderandrew can input text into NPCs now, or did they toss it aside like the framework that was built by Joviex to accept crowdfunded assets. I did nothing for Lum. Never had a problem with Lum, because I could read Lum's face from day one. "Oh fuck, we are heading into this shit storm for 3+ years with no map...." You can see it on his face the entire KS and the 2+ months after, at which point I figure the next stage in his 5 stages of grief kicked in and he moved to acceptance.
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dodgy
Strong in the Force
Posts: 1,171
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Lum
Dec 15, 2015 8:52:23 GMT
Post by dodgy on Dec 15, 2015 8:52:23 GMT
Why do people make excuses?
He's just as accountable. I don't find do him particularly insightful or anything.
You guys are delusional right now. He's part of the shit fight. You are like beaten wives justifying why your husband strikes you, shifting blame etc.
Port is a bad company. It has lied , shifted goal posts, mishandled development, has squeezed as much money out of people as possible with no real explanation or justification. It has fostered a culture of double standards and a community of sycophantic symbiots.
This has been deliberate. And to say otherwise is not looking at facts.
They scrambled the demo suckered us in before we knew much about unity.
The mission statement was deliberately vague. Depending on what side of the Uo /Ultima fence you sat.
The deliberate advertising on UO shards
The fact they have raised more money in the development then the KS shows they have a steady flow.
People keep saying oh 8 million is not much. Guess what with unity it is. We have seen what can be done with unity on games with infinitly smaller budgets.
We know they can drum up hype. Hell there are links to it. It's not like those websites have any ounce of journalistic integrity. Anyone who keeps fingers on pulse will know but this game can still suck in a bunch of patsys.
No accountability on any of devs. That's the worst RG KNOWS NOTHING. Darkstar waffles garbage and half truths. Chris is incompetent and engages in open sledging of his player base. So does dark when you think about it. The sense of entitlement and arrogance is a massive red flag. Lum waffles on his blog clearly thinking he is some deep and wise philosopher. It's like dad's army over at Port.
They will drag this development out making the money from add on. Then launch game with some hype. Squeeze last bit of cent. I have no doubt they using this to fund their next venture or work on backend systems. It's certainly not the game. Ie provide the infrastructure for micro transactions to a third party / mobile gaming.
These people with portal have 0 integrity and their development days are numbered. They know this. They are setting up for something else and less putting yourself out there. Ultimate collection and that gambling game technology and backend work didn't just dissappear. You don't get venture capital to the tune of 7 million for a game on a unity demo.
Wake up. Stop excusing them.
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Caliya
Strong in the Force
People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121
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Lum
Dec 15, 2015 10:25:28 GMT
Post by Caliya on Dec 15, 2015 10:25:28 GMT
SU DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying we shouldn't criticize Portalarium for their founded shortcomings, those things that have been well documented over the years, just that we should do so for good reasons, lest we be seduced by the same-anti virtues that we criticize. There are times we've degraded and bashed people over there. And Port staff. But we aren't selling a game. We aren't the management that's representative of the company. And while they are only human and get pissed at things, just like we do, they are not doing themselves and the company any favors by behaving irresponsibly. It only makes a bad name for the game. On another note, at what point is criticism warranted? There have been political leaders and corporate heads that have done some horrendous things throughout history. If someone had called them out on it much sooner, we may not have had the devastation to our populations and economies. If all they want is a bunch of boot licking sheep, then they will only appeal to that audience and not a wider audience who has intelligence and independent thought. I know, right? That's a bash against their intelligence, like they have done the same towards us. Especially Chris Spears. The fact they keep proving they have no real business plan or foresight reveals their level of intelligence. If you are, or have been, in that industry, it's very easy to spot.
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Dec 15, 2015 12:38:12 GMT
The fact they keep proving they have no real business plan or foresight reveals their level of intelligence. If you are, or have been, in that industry, it's very easy to spot. Some of us are in that industry. Not I, but Joviex for example. I am sure right now in some office somewhere Portalarium's Shroud of the Avatar campaign is being used as a perfect example. Of exactly how not to go about things. Wake up. Stop excusing them. I will just refer back to the OP for this one, I do not believe Mordecai intended to excuse anyone for any thing. I think Mordecai had a good point where he mentioned that Lum was a bit snarky and then he kind of explained why that is important. If you read between the lines, I think it goes a long ways to showing that: 1. Not all portalarium staff are as happy with their product as they could be. Search my blog for "qball" for a great example of that btw. 2. Lum in his snark indicates that the community he is currently speaking to, the sota one not us, isn't quite as fucking perfect as they think they are. This was an IM translation of complicated Mordecai comments, so, could be a bit off
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dodgy
Strong in the Force
Posts: 1,171
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Lum
Dec 15, 2015 12:55:41 GMT
via mobile
Joviex likes this
Post by dodgy on Dec 15, 2015 12:55:41 GMT
OK. I didn't read it that way. Thanks for clearing it up. That makes more sense IM
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Lum
Dec 15, 2015 13:22:35 GMT
Joviex likes this
Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Dec 15, 2015 13:22:35 GMT
OK. I didn't read it that way. Thanks for clearing it up. That makes more sense IM I only hope that I am reading it correctly also lawl
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Lum
Dec 15, 2015 14:40:45 GMT
via mobile
Post by fossil on Dec 15, 2015 14:40:45 GMT
KB? Apologetic? Mord? Wtf?
We are becoming soft... what happened to the heartless beasts?
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