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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Nov 16, 2015 5:38:04 GMT
FireLotus: Sara Dragyon would like to know how many more player towns are are planned to be sold?
Starr: Well, uh, as many of you know we, dre-, uh, drew a line and stopped selling Player Owned Towns that have direct access, uh, to the over-world. Uh, and, because of that decision we currently don't, uh, see a particular need to limit sales of those because, uh, they won't be cluttering(muffled) up the over-world. Uh, and speaking of which, uh, Novians are starting to notice that, uh, and, uh, they're not too happy about it...
Also I don't know about you guys, but there are some serious audio issues at that place. Wish they had a decent microphone.
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Post by dewderonomy on Nov 16, 2015 6:28:52 GMT
I always forget that this is a game.
I always think of these forums as a response to their forum members and forget that the inert playerbase is a part of that game.
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Nov 16, 2015 6:49:11 GMT
I always forget that this is a game. I always think of these forums as a response to their forum members and forget that the inert playerbase is a part of that game. Kind of started that way, so I suppose it is understandable. I started the blog attacking what I perceived as unprofessional acts from the moderation team as well as unsavoury acts and examples of some of the forum personalties on the SotA forum. Call me a hypocrite for sure, I can take it, what I haven't ever done is start publishing information on who these SotA personalaties really are IRL, I've tried to leave it to only my opinion about how those personalities present themselves to the rest of the community. All be it a rather harsh opinion I do grant you at times. The inert player base is massive. If you are to believe some of the figures that come from the community and SotA devs. To the point where the majority of the people who purchased the game haven't even logged into it yet. |
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Post by dewderonomy on Nov 16, 2015 8:18:16 GMT
I always forget that this is a game. I always think of these forums as a response to their forum members and forget that the inert playerbase is a part of that game. The inert player base is massive. If you are to believe some of the figures that come from the community and SotA devs. To the point where the majority of the people who purchased the game haven't even logged into it yet.  |
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Post by nemolives on Nov 16, 2015 11:55:21 GMT
Uh, and speaking of which, uh, Novians are starting to notice that, uh, and, uh, they're not too happy about it... I can't find it now, but someone posted a map with 230 visible player owned towns plotted to average density on it, and it looked like there would be a town every second hex or so... the map looked like it had measles. Does anyone know where it is? And this is a direct illustration of where the Devs have absolutely lost control of the development process. They sold the towns on the basis of the players being able to choose roughly where on the map they went; but too many have been sold, and the only way you can honour even the biome type (Snow, Sand etc) people choose now is by shoving them off to a third, housing only island. Malas Reborn! And we all know how fond people were of that landmass in UO. But most of the buyers who don't intend to resell want to be on the main map. Arguments will ensue, no doubt. Some poor sod has now got to try and hash out a new map layout with let's say 150 (because some have multiple PoTs) people by email individually. You're not going to get every PoT owner into a conference call, frankly. And then you still have to custom design the individual PoTs. Want to bet that when they finally place, and can be seen, people go back and say "Hey, his design looks better, can I have that instead?" And those who didn't get the limited edition visible ones have to wait for all of that to be sorted out so they can know who and where they'll be linked too... And then! More arguments ensue as people say "Hey, my $1000 is the same as PaxLairs, why do they get special treatment and first choice of location?" I don't have much sympathy for such people; you knew the design was treating those who'd spent less as if they were second class citizens, but didn't fight it when you thought you'd spent enough to avoid the negative consequences, and now it's biting you in the behind too. You chose to ride that tiger, tough luck for you too then. I do feel a bit of sympathy for Starr Long though; he is clearly aware things aren't exactly working out for the good of the game. Where is any of the chaotic gameplay he longs for? You poor folks wanting PvP need a large, engaged audience and Portalarium are too busy chasing whales to provide any of the game systems that would attract them. But .... arrrgh, it's just all so obvious, and I'm just repeating myself! "Not too happy", indeed! So what is going to be done about it? Real world cash transactions locks them into honouring what they've sold, but why not just say "Look, we love you guys, but we've got a game to build too. Can we put all this on hold whilst we lock down some basic gameplay, get some media buzz going again because the average player loves what we're building, and come back to you and your high end spending later? A game needs a community, let's work on that first, eh?" |
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Caliya
Strong in the Force
People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121 
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Post by Caliya on Nov 16, 2015 14:42:49 GMT
I do feel a bit of sympathy for Starr Long though; he is clearly aware things aren't exactly working out for the good of the game. I feel no sympathy for him whatsoever. A good, no, an excellent game designer thinks of the consequences of their actions beyond making a buck. They think about how a decision can affect a host of players and play styles - including both genders and a host of other countries, on top of the tier of backing. When POTs were created, the first question should have been, what limit will we place on them, and why? Will we need to make the towns instances (as if they aren't all instanced anyway) if we sell more than X amount? How will players react if they are told only instanced islands are now available, and they can only access them through someone else's town - and fuck you if you're banned from that town? There are a lot more questions that should have been addressed and answered prior to actually selling POTs. No wait. They should never have made POTs. Period. It was not in the KS goals. You can't change goals while you've already launched. before actually finishing the original content proposal. No, no sympathy from me whatsoever. It's bad game management, pure and simple. No foresight, no oversight. Just let's make money! Yippee! Oh wait, what can of worms did we just unleash? |
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Post by fossil on Nov 16, 2015 15:22:25 GMT
I do feel a bit of sympathy for Starr Long though; he is clearly aware things aren't exactly working out for the good of the game. I feel no sympathy for him whatsoever. A good, no, an excellent game designer thinks of the consequences of their actions beyond making a buck. They think about how a decision can affect a host of players and play styles - including both genders and a host of other countries, on top of the tier of backing. When POTs were created, the first question should have been, what limit will we place on them, and why? Will we need to make the towns instances (as if they aren't all instanced anyway) if we sell more than X amount? How will players react if they are told only instanced islands are now available, and they can only access them through someone else's town - and fuck you if you're banned from that town? There are a lot more questions that should have been addressed and answered prior to actually selling POTs. No wait. They should never have made POTs. Period. It was not in the KS goals. You can't change goals while you've already launched. before actually finishing the original content proposal. No, no sympathy from me whatsoever. It's bad game management, pure and simple. No foresight, no oversight. Just let's make money! Yippee! Oh wait, what can of worms did we just unleash? I think they fucked up... Pretty sure they coulda charged a ransom for POT'S and still had buyers. If your going to sellout, might as well go full sellout. Thinking they should of been the cost of a real life house. This way there would have been less overall and they coulda milked the dumbies even harder. If it all worked out, you'd of had an even higher markup. |
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Nov 16, 2015 15:35:20 GMT
It did surprise the hell out of me, the cost and willingness of some to pay for these things. It was mentioned in that big thread a while back by unicornslady, about the Devs undervaluing the virtual real estate. Boy did they ever do that.
I think you're quite correct fossil, they could have done this "right", but that "right" should have been after E1 release and it should have funded E2. They really missed the chance on that.
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Post by fossil on Nov 16, 2015 17:07:17 GMT
If this game doesn't totally flop It'd shock the crap out of me... I mean when other game devs try not to mock stupid decisions but in the end do so cuz they don't give a fuck... 4 games now I've seen videos of devs going this is what will kill you and Sota does it... the gist of it.
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calico
Strong in the Force
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Post by calico on Nov 16, 2015 19:56:09 GMT
Since when was ultima about chaos? If anything it was all about structured virtues.
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Post by nemolives on Nov 16, 2015 20:07:40 GMT
I do feel a bit of sympathy for Starr Long though; he is clearly aware things aren't exactly working out for the good of the game. No, no sympathy from me whatsoever. It's bad game management, pure and simple. No foresight, no oversight. Just let's make money! Yippee! Oh wait, what can of worms did we just unleash? I agree it's bad management, but the question is, who is the manager that's being so bad? I don't think it's necessarily Starr, I think someone is setting ridiculous funding goals which is locking their tiny pool of software programmers and their limited man-hours into trying to keep up with the promises made. I'm not sure who it is though, and as a company, they'll put a united front on pretending there isn't anything wrong, because they'll likely be sat right right next to the person making those demands in their office. I'll bet they have an opinion as to who it is themselves though, but the thing about a tiny development team is individuals have much more concentrated power, so it's harder to buck the system. And the extra catch in the software industry is you can't even challenge those decisions unless you're directly involved in the coding of the game; even then, the final decision to Publish or not rests elsewhere. I'm probably more sympathetic because I worked on UO as EM too; Remember when Broadsword brought UO? Remember how virtually nothing changed? That's because the game is basically the Kyronix/Mesanna show. No one else working on the Game has any influence at all. Heck even Rob Denton, who technically owns it now, all that his money paid for was an expansion that was built by the exact same people again, with the exact same attitudes and talents. You could sack the team and replace them with others, but then the power is now with the owner not the coders... So who is it at Portalarium insisting on endless fundraisers? I don't know. At least Starr publicly notices the discord about housing, which makes me lean towards it not being him. So I'm a little sympathetic. Doesn't mean the game isn't shit-on-a-biscuit-misguided as a whole though, but until I know who exactly is responsible for that, I'm loathe to reject the little flashes of rebellion that leak out. |
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Post by nemolives on Nov 16, 2015 20:10:46 GMT
Since when was ultima about chaos? If anything it was all about structured virtues. Single player, story driven gameplay was about the Virtues, yes. But a lot of the wider love for the game was just messing about with the game engine, either baking bread or discovering how to kill Lord British. And for a fair few people, Early Ultima Online was about completely unstructured PvP... Not saying I agree with that, just they are valid interpretations of what the earlier games were about, and more importantly, what Starr has been saying for years that Shroud plans to embrace today. |
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titsup
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Post by titsup on Nov 16, 2015 23:58:02 GMT
on Mishri, font of comedy. |
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Nov 17, 2015 1:54:42 GMT
So I will say something odd.
What if it wasn't and isn't Starr's fault? It probably really isn't any single person's fault anyway, but, remember Starr wasn't there from the start. He was brought in. Was it to save a sinking ship? Was it simply because they needed a PM, and was it too late for them to bring him in? Who was running the project prior to Starr, one or a group of guys with shared responsibility?
Someone knows the answers, but it isn't me.
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calico
Strong in the Force
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Post by calico on Nov 17, 2015 2:04:00 GMT
So I will say something odd. What if it wasn't and isn't Starr's fault? It probably really isn't any single person's fault anyway, but, remember Starr wasn't there from the start. He was brought in. Was it to save a sinking ship? Was it simply because they needed a PM, and was it too late for them to bring him in? Who was running the project prior to Starr, one or a group of guys with shared responsibility? Someone knows the answers, but it isn't me. When starr got involved I knew the game was in trouble....when I backed he wasn't yet. |
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Nov 17, 2015 2:04:40 GMT
So I will say something odd. What if it wasn't and isn't Starr's fault? It probably really isn't any single person's fault anyway, but, remember Starr wasn't there from the start. He was brought in. Was it to save a sinking ship? Was it simply because they needed a PM, and was it too late for them to bring him in? Who was running the project prior to Starr, one or a group of guys with shared responsibility? Someone knows the answers, but it isn't me. When starr got involved I knew the game was in trouble....when I backed he wasn't yet. Same here. But, you knew it was in trouble before he joined? Or because he joined, you knew trouble was coming. Also, then could you explain why you thought that?  |
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Caliya
Strong in the Force
People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121
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Post by Caliya on Nov 17, 2015 11:56:28 GMT
So I will say something odd. What if it wasn't and isn't Starr's fault? It probably really isn't any single person's fault anyway, but, remember Starr wasn't there from the start. He was brought in. Was it to save a sinking ship? Was it simply because they needed a PM, and was it too late for them to bring him in? Who was running the project prior to Starr, one or a group of guys with shared responsibility? Someone knows the answers, but it isn't me. POTs were not originally intended or even mentioned. Some stretch goal of shareable castles was. Not an entire scene. POTs weren't introduced until Starr was well on board. Who knows who's to blame. Who cares. It's one big mess. |
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Post by nemolives on Nov 17, 2015 12:33:56 GMT
So I will say something odd. What if it wasn't and isn't Starr's fault? It probably really isn't any single person's fault anyway, but, remember Starr wasn't there from the start. He was brought in. Was it to save a sinking ship? Was it simply because they needed a PM, and was it too late for them to bring him in? Who was running the project prior to Starr, one or a group of guys with shared responsibility? Someone knows the answers, but it isn't me. POTs were not originally intended or even mentioned. Some stretch goal of shareable castles was. Not an entire scene. POTs weren't introduced until Starr was well on board. Who knows who's to blame. Who cares. It's one big mess. I get where you're coming from; the horrible mess it's become is heartbreaking, and in a world full of wankers, do we really need more people messing up our dreams and turning them into playthings for the rich? It's understandable to be so widely bitter and angry... but it's not entirely practical. Look at it like this; if it's not Starr, or any particular individual within the company, if you could give them much more public support, they might be able to do internally what we on the outside are powerless to do, and appeal to whoever is setting the design decisions to think again. Otherwise we accept the very excuse Portalarium uses; that it's a collective decision, and so a done deal, rather than one up for debate. If we want dissenting voices then, we should be prepared to recognise when they try and speak. I know it's probably hopeless now, the mess of store commitments is just too deep and tangled. But still... someone on the team noticed we're pissed. I think we should applaud that, whilst of course adding "and let's have some more of that!" |
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Caliya
Strong in the Force
People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121
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Post by Caliya on Nov 17, 2015 13:42:46 GMT
I know it's probably hopeless now, the mess of store commitments is just too deep and tangled. Ya, things are already too entrenched to switch gears. someone on the team noticed we're pissed. And could care less if they have more customers and money apparently. One hand doesn't know what the other is doing. One hand is trying to raise money by any means, even if it makes a mess. The other hand says, get the hell out, we don't want your business. |
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Post by kb on Nov 17, 2015 13:54:04 GMT
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titsup
Strong in the Force
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Post by titsup on Nov 17, 2015 16:09:49 GMT
So I will say something odd. What if it wasn't and isn't Starr's fault? It probably really isn't any single person's fault anyway, but, remember Starr wasn't there from the start. He was brought in. Was it to save a sinking ship? Was it simply because they needed a PM, and was it too late for them to bring him in? Who was running the project prior to Starr, one or a group of guys with shared responsibility? Someone knows the answers, but it isn't me. Its entirely possible Starr needed a job after Disney decided to close the entire division of which he was in charge. |
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Nov 17, 2015 16:23:00 GMT
So I will say something odd. What if it wasn't and isn't Starr's fault? It probably really isn't any single person's fault anyway, but, remember Starr wasn't there from the start. He was brought in. Was it to save a sinking ship? Was it simply because they needed a PM, and was it too late for them to bring him in? Who was running the project prior to Starr, one or a group of guys with shared responsibility? Someone knows the answers, but it isn't me. Its entirely possible Starr needed a job after Disney decided to close the entire division of which he was in charge. I have always wondered if that was too obvious of a thing to actually be true. Also prior to that LB was more involved... 1+1? |
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titsup
Strong in the Force
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Post by titsup on Nov 17, 2015 17:32:07 GMT
I doubt RG wanted to remain involved in daily operations at that level. It appears he would prefer to stay home and be relied on for creativity more than stability, which is probably for the better.
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Post by nemolives on Nov 17, 2015 18:50:33 GMT
Someone has already posted on that Steam review that the stand up notes are hidden behind the Pledge paywall; I was wondering about those because I'd never seen them mentioned, and I got pretty deep into supporting the game at one point. I think I'll make that point there, in a constructive way if possible...!
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Post by kb on Nov 17, 2015 23:35:14 GMT
Someone has already posted on that Steam review that the stand up notes are hidden behind the Pledge paywall; I was wondering about those because I'd never seen them mentioned, and I got pretty deep into supporting the game at one point. I think I'll make that point there, in a constructive way if possible...! That was me. I just couldn't restrain myself (and yeah, I'm not constructive in how I put things, hence my status as a pariah)... but oh well, it had to be said!  ^NEVERMIND, I think you were probably referring to the other people who dogpiled on! GOOOOO TEAM!  That said, the connection between Kuno Brauer and RedCombLP shouldn't be any mystery to the devs. I've been bird-dogging them on Steam under that pseudonym since the Steam Review Request (and back when I still had official forum access, I made the connection as plain as day in my posts there in case there was any confusion about it).
My review where I railed against the review request was rated helpful and sat at the top of the "most helpful" reviews for quite some time (much to the chagrin of Port, Dallas in particular <--- see his copy pasta comments in my review... lul). It used to be in the high 60% as far as helpfulness goes, but the "pod" from Port has knocked it down several percentage points during their recent down-voting spree and it's so old that it's been relegated to the dustbin of the Steam reviews.
What's funny is that it's likely many of the upvotes came from a MMORPG.COM thread that I wasn't aware of until many months later: forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/428225/interesting-steam-review <--- I think this was a big factor in Port's decision to keep me "temporarily forum banned" for over a month until my anger boiled over at them (and Katrina Bekers) in the Steam forums that they had all the ammo they needed to ban me from those forums as well....
Anyway, Chris is hilarious. Every time I see "catnipgames" commenting in response to negative reviews, I know it's going to be something golden. Chris alone has provided me with more entertainment than SotA ever did and ever will.
Case in point: Dippy the Dodo (poorly created photoshop in response to a thread that IM made awhile back)...
Poor little guy. Still can't figure out how that bizarro combat thing is supposed to work.
"I'm helping! I'm helping!" |
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Nov 18, 2015 0:28:10 GMT
Someone has already posted on that Steam review that the stand up notes are hidden behind the Pledge paywall; I was wondering about those because I'd never seen them mentioned, and I got pretty deep into supporting the game at one point. I think I'll make that point there, in a constructive way if possible...! Twopence for links? |
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Post by kb on Nov 18, 2015 6:33:41 GMT
Someone has already posted on that Steam review that the stand up notes are hidden behind the Pledge paywall; I was wondering about those because I'd never seen them mentioned, and I got pretty deep into supporting the game at one point. I think I'll make that point there, in a constructive way if possible...! Twopence for links? ^BTW, I screwed up with the whole Dev Blog vs Dev+ stuff. Sorry about that to the three who posted after me (if it was indeed my mistake that led you astray). Damn pledge rewards are so convoluted and hidden away behind convoluted crap that I mixed things up. Still doesn't change the fact that the info requires paying above and beyond the initial price of the game and Chris is out of line harping on that reviewer for not knowing that info. |
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Nov 18, 2015 7:31:46 GMT
Love how he puts dissenters down by saying if you want intelligent people to listen...
Chris is most incompetent dude at Port. Mind you I love reading his tears in steam.
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Post by dewderonomy on Nov 18, 2015 7:37:36 GMT
Love how he puts dissenters down by saying if you want intelligent people to listen... Chris is most incompetent dude at Port. Mind you I love reading his tears in steam. "Beautiful, intelligent people know and agree that..." |
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Joviex
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PERMABANNED
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Post by Joviex on Nov 18, 2015 7:48:12 GMT
Using feature complete to shield you from PoT and other FEATURE CREEP is the lamest thing I have ever heard. To be fair to his point, yes, there are clear definitions for things. Three years later, on a project, as he so nicely pointed out for us, which should be 1/2 the development time (6 years of say ESO) and at 1/25th the budget (ESO was 200mil x 0.04) ~~ 8 million. Seems they have hit both the time scale (3 years vs 6) and the budget at this point. Rock on, where is the final game? |
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