Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Oct 7, 2015 12:41:28 GMT
In another thread, dodgy asked me where, in the US or western world, women are suppressed. An awful lot of things could be said, but I just read this today and it reminded me about the topic. There is still no equal pay for women. Here it is, 2015, and a law is passed in California to rectify that problem. If you don't want to read the attached article, this pretty much says a lot of it: California Governor Jerry Brown signed legislation on Tuesday aimed at closing the wage gap between men and women, a law that supporters say is among the strongest in the country. Brown signed the California Fair Pay Act in the San Francisco Bay Area city of Richmond at the Rosie the Riveter National Historic Park, which honors women who worked in factories during World War Two. "The inequities that have plagued our state and have burdened women forever are slowly being resolved with this kind of bill," Brown, a Democrat, said at the signing event. The bill, authored by Democratic state Senator Hannah-Beth Jackson, prohibits employees from facing retaliation for discussing their pay rates at work.
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Post by Mordecai on Oct 7, 2015 18:27:56 GMT
My eyes lit up when I saw this thread. Is there a specific part of or thing about women's suppression that you wanted to discuss, or can we just go in any direction?
I'll take it that unequal pay denotes sexist mistreatment, but what other things are happening in the world that point in that direction? Specifically, I'm thinking about inequalities caused by gender roles in homes, marriages, parenting, television, and cultures. More to the point, I'm wondering to what degree gender roles should be allowed to cause inequalities. Chalk it up to my interest in ethics, but I want to know where 'the line' is between acceptable and unacceptable gender inequalities.
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Post by myrcello on Oct 7, 2015 21:18:48 GMT
I think i share Emma Watson speech.
Because i remember the speech she did back in 2014 did impress me.
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Oct 8, 2015 5:01:37 GMT
How will we define suppression for use in the thread?
What western culture feels is suppression? Or suppression even still in culture we are talking about... I mean... Sudi Arabia and all...
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Oct 8, 2015 5:16:50 GMT
Hey toots Ivery been put camping this week and just drove through town and got this gorgeous post.
I assure you once I'm home I shall respond.
Here's looking at you kid
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Caliya
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People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
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Post by Caliya on Oct 9, 2015 8:58:43 GMT
My eyes lit up when I saw this thread. Is there a specific part of or thing about women's suppression that you wanted to discuss, or can we just go in any direction? I'll take it that unequal pay denotes sexist mistreatment, but what other things are happening in the world that point in that direction? Specifically, I'm thinking about inequalities caused by gender roles in homes, marriages, parenting, television, and cultures. More to the point, I'm wondering to what degree gender roles should be allowed to cause inequalities. Chalk it up to my interest in ethics, but I want to know where 'the line' is between acceptable and unacceptable gender inequalities. I have no line, because it spans so many different areas of life. But it would be nice to stay on topic, that it's related to inequalities. And, maybe I should have called it Women's and Men's Suppression, because men have also experienced inequality.
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Caliya
Strong in the Force
People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
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Post by Caliya on Oct 9, 2015 9:12:22 GMT
I think i share Emma Watson speech. Because i remember the speech she did back in 2014 did impress me. That was an awesome speech. Thanks for sharing it. When we think of stereotypes of what a "feminist" looks like, she does not fit the stereotype, she really looks the part of an ordinary and beautiful woman. And that is what most feminists are, like me. I'm also glad she brought up men's problems. Because I've seen the same. I think, beyond everything, is compassion for human rights.
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Caliya
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People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
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Post by Caliya on Oct 9, 2015 10:03:09 GMT
How will we define suppression for use in the thread? What western culture feels is suppression? Or suppression even still in culture we are talking about... I mean... Sudi Arabia and all... If you listen to the speech that myrcello posted, you can see that humans, in general, are subject to suppression. So I'm just using the first definition that Google gives me, but it doesn't need to be limited to just that one definition. But essentially, "the action of suppressing something such as an activity or publication." It can also be defined: "to put an end to the activities of (a person, body of persons, etc.)." So I'll give an example. When I was in a committed relationship in my late teens/early 20s, I was miserable. He flew off the handle when I got my own bank account. When I tried to leave him, he took the coil from the car so it wouldn't start, and told me to "get back in the house and vacuum the living room." Yes, right in America. Is it any wonder I left him? Those are suppression of a person's activities. It's control. Anything that intimidates or humiliates another person is also suppression. I'm sure men have experienced humiliation and intimidation too. When women have melt-downs or drama, those are her societally accepted forms of intimidation. That shouldn't be tolerated either.
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Post by Mordecai on Oct 9, 2015 14:42:41 GMT
I have no line, because it spans so many different areas of life. If we don't have a line, if we can't define suppression, then how are we in a position to make ethical judgements about it? How will we define suppression for use in the thread? This question is central in enabling us to draw sound conclusions about women's suppression. The suppression of woman might be wrong, or it might be ideal- it can go either way if we don't know what "suppression" means in the context of the discussion. I'm sure we all have a rough idea- such can be found in a quick search query- (and don't believe that suppression is ideal), but if we're going to discuss this, let's start by defining it contextually.
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Caliya
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People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
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Post by Caliya on Oct 9, 2015 15:23:29 GMT
I have no line, because it spans so many different areas of life. If we don't have a line, if we can't define suppression, then how are we in a position to make ethical judgements about it? How will we define suppression for use in the thread? This question is central in enabling us to draw sound conclusions about women's suppression. The suppression of woman might be wrong, or it might be ideal- it can go either way if we don't know what "suppression" means in the context of the discussion. I'm sure we all have a rough idea- such can be found in a quick search query- (and don't believe that suppression is ideal), but if we're going to discuss this, let's start by defining it contextually. In the post just before yours, I put out a couple definitions. It shouldn't be too difficult, but if we're going to debate definitions, then we've already lost focus
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Post by Mordecai on Oct 9, 2015 18:20:14 GMT
Your second definition gives us an idea of what suppression is, but it draws no meaningful legal or ethical boundaries: "to put an end to the activities of (a person, body of persons, etc.)".
Now that we have a definition, we just need a subject or point of discussion. I advocate for an inquiry of when suppression is and is not ethically permissible, but I'm open to other ideas.
While the OP is good information, it lacks assertions or questions, leaving us with just a context. So asking questions in the context of the thread is not only on topic, but also beneficial to discussion. Do you truly believe that the definition of suppression is irrelevant in a discussion of the suppression of woman?
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Caliya
Strong in the Force
People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
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Post by Caliya on Oct 10, 2015 19:44:13 GMT
*sigh* nm
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Oct 12, 2015 1:35:53 GMT
If we don't have a line, if we can't define suppression, then how are we in a position to make ethical judgements about it?This question is central in enabling us to draw sound conclusions about women's suppression. The suppression of woman might be wrong, or it might be ideal- it can go either way if we don't know what "suppression" means in the context of the discussion. I'm sure we all have a rough idea- such can be found in a quick search query- (and don't believe that suppression is ideal), but if we're going to discuss this, let's start by defining it contextually. In the post just before yours, I put out a couple definitions. It shouldn't be too difficult, but if we're going to debate definitions, then we've already lost focus Sorry, I think I just meant to say is it that definition that we read, understand, and apply to to others even if they think they are not being repressed in their own culture? Let us take something that isn't too divisive here as an example... Women driving in certain middle east countries. Some of them staunchly defend the policy that women cannot drive because in their culture it is seen as a chance not only for women, but for men who are now seeing a lot more women on the road, to be put in the condition to propagate promiscuity. That is bullshit, but it is theology/culture driven bullshit, and it is seemingly what the majority still believe and approve of despite some of the red flag examples where resistance is being met on the subject. Most of those countries are recognized as sovereign entities... So, should we even be commenting on those things or should we just be looking inward to our own corresponding local cultural affairs? I have an opinion on the matters such as that because thought is free and unrestricted, but I try to not comment on such things often because often don't feel like I have a right. I am not a citizen nor am I engaged in any of that culture what so ever. One thing I am solidly behind is the right that the oppressed(as defined by the individual) person has to actually remove themselves from that situation. They should freely be able to leave the theology and country with no reciprocal action from either taken against them!
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Oct 12, 2015 3:49:02 GMT
So I'm still on my phone rocking a rowdy beard stalking the woods of the west coast of Australia.
Emma Watson has been attacked by feminist as being a white feminist apologetic to men. There are articles bout it. It's this out there crazy feminism that I loathe. I'm all for equality if a woman wants to enter a physical male oriented field then she has to fit the group not the group fit the woman. It's just like hazing the new guy. If blokes don't tow party line they don't last long. Is this deemed as suppression?
Sooner we get over gender quicker we can get on with what matters. I say remove all gender.
OK leaving town back to the woods
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Caliya
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Post by Caliya on Oct 12, 2015 11:27:14 GMT
So, should we even be commenting on those things or should we just be looking inward to our own corresponding local cultural affairs? I'm interested in hearing what men have to say about these outward things, as well as the other. It gives us the opportunity to look at things in a new light. I appreciate you feel it's not your place to comment, but I still am interested. Like the women driving topic. If a person is oppressed/suppressed their whole lives, do they even know it? It's a little bit like the ocean trying to tell a fish, in a bowl of water, that it's oppressed. How would they know unless they'd experienced the ocean? To me, traveling a lot around different countries, has given me a lot different perspective of the world and cultures. We see that knowing people who have lived in the same towns their entire lives don't even know there's a wider world "out there" and they often tend to be very stuck in their views. That can be carried over into an entire culture. If media and men control the daily affairs of everyone (men & women alike), those people in those cultures learn to live "by the rules." It's one reason I don't pay attention to mainstream media or music. It seeks to conform us to certain ways of thinking and living. If we look at television commercials, in the US, in the 1950s & 60s, we see women always had on aprons and were in their kitchens. They were told how exciting it was to have a product to make their jobs easier to keep a house clean. And their husbands arriving home from work, happy to greet her and a clean house. Sitcoms and other TV programs were developed entirely from corporate sponsored ads and financing. In fact, if you did not meet their goals of promoting their products (product placement too), then your program would never be aired on commercial TV. Then we look at ads today, where women are supposed to be everything for everyone. In the 1980s they threw in one tiny sentence that a man "would cook for the kids" in this commercial. But not much has changed about women's roles today. And btw, I hate perfume. Natural fragrances, like lavender or roses are great. But not stuff like this overpriced crap.
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Caliya
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People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121
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Post by Caliya on Oct 12, 2015 11:34:20 GMT
she has to fit the group not the group fit the woman I would agree with this, but men often don't make it easy for a woman to fit in. In fact, often they make things harder so that she'll give up and leave. I always had desk jobs, but I always had male managers and never could climb those ladders to management. And I know for a fact I was paid less than a man doing the same job.
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Oct 13, 2015 4:14:36 GMT
It really is a hard matter do discuss. I believe the real issue here is the law. Law be it civil or theocratic will often dictate how people, women in included, are treated. You then need to look at the entity creating the law in order to understand why certain people have rights and certain people do not. It is all too common that the liberties people see are only that which are allowed to them from a malevolent entity.
After enough time, right or wrong, that will create a culture where people come to accept what they have as liberties and begin to defend them as such. You can see this in all sorts of cultures, simplicity you could reference Stockholm syndrome for an easy to understand non-long term effect where it can happen very quickly time wise. To give real world examples, some women think that driving a car allows men to be exposed to more women and have a greater chance to do something "incorrect" with them, so they defend the position that women shouldn't be allowed to drive. Some women believe that mutilation of their own female family member's genitalia is seen as a matter of hygiene and then a sexual attraction issue for men on top of that, and that is propagated mostly by older women in the same family.
Do I think everyone has the right to drive a car if they pass the required safety testing in order to do it in a safe manner for everyone? Yes. Do I have a right to tell someone that the reason they don't want to drive is fundamentally flawed and attempt to educate them in my way? I am not so sure! Interference between what one culture thinks is correct to another culture thinks is correct can be met with some hostility... Even when in the form of generalised education. This is an internal conflict within myself, actions define you and as much as I would like everyone to be progressive around the world, by taking no action or being outspoken on it I don't actually help anyone.
Every issue has it's own set of circumstances. I do not believe that some countries have an excuse though on some of them. The United States, where it is proven that women do not get paid the same as men(go California though), should have absolutely no reason to pay women less for doing the same job as a man in 2015.
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Caliya
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People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
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Post by Caliya on Oct 13, 2015 7:39:10 GMT
I agree, it might cause too much upset if we try to interfere with the "norms" of a particular society. And then there's always this:
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” ― Mahatma Gandhi
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Oct 13, 2015 10:41:35 GMT
"Peace and friendship with all mankind is our wisest policy, and I wish we may be permitted to pursue it."
- Thomas Jefferson
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Post by Mordecai on Oct 13, 2015 17:33:14 GMT
“That short-haired joy and roughness- America- your stupidity. I could almost love you again.”
~Gary Snyder, Turtle Island (1974)
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Caliya
Strong in the Force
People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121
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Post by Caliya on Oct 30, 2015 13:26:34 GMT
Somewhat along these lines, it's because of stereotypes that (probably mostly male) scientists automatically deduced graves with weapons were males. Now that they're actually doing DNA research, they're finding that 1/3-1/2 of the warrior graves were women buried with their own swords and shields. Invasion of the Viking Women UnearthedThey're also re-examining the automatic implication that women were raped and abused.
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Oct 30, 2015 14:41:46 GMT
Somewhat along these lines, it's because of stereotypes that (probably mostly male) scientists automatically deduced graves with weapons were males. Now that they're actually doing DNA research, they're finding that 1/3-1/2 of the warrior graves were women buried with their own swords and shields. Invasion of the Viking Women UnearthedThey're also re-examining the automatic implication that women were raped and abused. Why in every sentence do you draw a battle line with statements like Mostly male or probably Male or white conservative male? If I spoke like that about females you would hang draw and quarter me but because you are a suppressed woman its ok to use that language?
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Post by Mordecai on Oct 30, 2015 19:40:29 GMT
it's because of stereotypes that (probably mostly male) scientists automatically deduced graves with weapons were males. Now that they're actually doing DNA research, they're finding that 1/3-1/2 of the warrior graves were women buried with their own swords and shields. Invasion of the Viking Women UnearthedThey're also re-examining the automatic implication that women were raped and abused. Why in every sentence do you draw a battle line with statements like Mostly male or probably Male or white conservative male? If I spoke like that about females you would hang draw and quarter me but because you are a suppressed woman its ok to use that language? Perception is everything. I don't believe that she intended to draw battle lines. Gender equality is a sensitive topic because we're all personally invested in our genders, which has a profound effect on our perceptions. In previous discussions, terms like "white conservative (affluent) male" have been used to identify a stereotypical yet largely accurate demographic, that of the wealthy older economy-worshiping (and thus) conservative white male (exemplars of the stereotype include Rush Limbaugh, Dick Cheney, and so on). I believe that Caliya opted to point out the likelihood that most scientists are male to accentuate her point. Science has long been a male-dominated field- I recall a collegiate experiment where two identical resumes were sent out to a number of colleges applying for educational positions, the only difference being name (one had a male name and the other a female). In every case without exception, the male was placed higher than the female in measurements of ability and desirability.
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Caliya
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People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121
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Post by Caliya on Oct 31, 2015 0:13:53 GMT
Somewhat along these lines, it's because of stereotypes that (probably mostly male) scientists automatically deduced graves with weapons were males. Now that they're actually doing DNA research, they're finding that 1/3-1/2 of the warrior graves were women buried with their own swords and shields. Invasion of the Viking Women UnearthedThey're also re-examining the automatic implication that women were raped and abused. Why in every sentence do you draw a battle line with statements like Mostly male or probably Male or white conservative male? If I spoke like that about females you would hang draw and quarter me but because you are a suppressed woman its ok to use that language? Because maybe it's true? Science is dominated by men, and through their eyes and the period of time, sometimes conclusions are drawn rather than actual facts. That's an important distinction because it shows how that paradigm is shifting. They are actually starting to be factual rather than opinionated. I don't see it as a battle line. And also notice, they are now questioning if women were raped and abused as much as it's been reported. They're wondering about the validity of that, and it's a subject that interests me. Perception is sometimes everything, and it's refreshing they are putting out facts rather than pure perception. So even male scientists are changing the way they look at the world (and women). I think that's a good thing. Tonight, I went out to dinner with my husband and 7 other scientists. Every one of them were men. There is maybe one female scientist in their group. When we were at a US national laboratory, there were only a couple of female scientists out of a dozen or more men. So science is still largely dominated by men. I have stories I could tell about that too - that women are sometimes hired purely because of affirmative action, or they are passed by because of an older male making the decision that trusts men more. To be fair, there are also fewer women that go into science, but those numbers are slowly growing.
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Caliya
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People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121
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Post by Caliya on Nov 5, 2015 13:27:44 GMT
This newspiece came out today. U.S. women paid less in all industries, every level: report Fathers earned the highest overall median salaries at about $67,900, compared to $46,800 for married mothers, and single women with children had the lowest median salary at $38,200. "The gender pay gap is absolutely real," said Aubrey Bach, senior editorial manager of PayScale Inc., the online salary, benefits and compensation information company that compiled the report. "Half or more of our workforce is made of women but we are still not progressing at the same level as men," she added. While men's salaries kept increasing until the age of 50 to 55, reaching a median salary of $75,000, the report showed women's wages hit a plateau between 35 to 40 years old at about $49,000.
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Nov 6, 2015 1:53:17 GMT
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Nov 17, 2015 11:19:41 GMT
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on Nov 17, 2015 11:28:02 GMT
I. Hate. This. Game.
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Caliya
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People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121
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Post by Caliya on Nov 17, 2015 11:48:17 GMT
Hows that for progress Caliya? Well of course it's a guy creating it (licemeat). Majoria must be doing cartwheels of joy. It's ridiculous. Pretty but not for a game like this. I really loved Captain Jack's post in response. He's so good at mocking the ridiculousness. I wonder why he's not burnt out yet.
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Caliya
Strong in the Force
People fight to gain things they can't take with them in the end
Posts: 2,121
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Post by Caliya on Nov 17, 2015 11:50:22 GMT
Maybe next they'll put dildos and blow up dolls in the add on store.
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