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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Jul 10, 2015 3:12:17 GMT
One would think, with the amount of money this guy has, he would want to make a game for the people, not another cash cow... that's what i would do if i was a millionaire. But that's not what they learned over the years post-UO. They didn't learn to make better games from their respective companies, they learned how to SELL games and make lots of money. They learned that if you can sell someone a believable illusion, they will bathe in shit and insist that it's perfume. The weak-willed and the "I want to believe" crowd can't get past it. They'll support the illusion until the end. At least until the illusion wears off and then Portalarium will quickly see what the pack of rabid wolves that attacked us for not buying the illusion feels like nipping at their heels. Then you'll see what a real carebear stare looks like. To be fair, at least myself, watched the KS campaign and thought that it sounded great... What I didn't expect, was that a Development company could go back and change their promises or alter the language around what they said to mean something totally different and justify seriously compromising the original intent of the campaign. I was under some illusion that what people say and write down and you pay for in the KS campaign... That it would have been enforced in some way. It wasn't, and seemingly isn't. You are right though, they learned how to sell shit to fanboys(me included) and turns out using KS is even more risky than buying a game off the shelf. You're sold a total illusion of transparency and inclusiveness. What you actually get, is permabanned when you try to defend your rights as a backer on the official forum. Again. Fuck Portalarium.
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dodgy
Strong in the Force
Posts: 1,171
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Post by dodgy on Jul 10, 2015 3:35:11 GMT
But that's not what they learned over the years post-UO. They didn't learn to make better games from their respective companies, they learned how to SELL games and make lots of money. They learned that if you can sell someone a believable illusion, they will bathe in shit and insist that it's perfume. The weak-willed and the "I want to believe" crowd can't get past it. They'll support the illusion until the end. At least until the illusion wears off and then Portalarium will quickly see what the pack of rabid wolves that attacked us for not buying the illusion feels like nipping at their heels. Then you'll see what a real carebear stare looks like. To be fair, at least myself, watched the KS campaign and thought that it sounded great... What I didn't expect, was that a Development company could go back and change their promises or alter the language around what they said to mean something totally different and justify seriously compromising the original intent of the campaign. I was under some illusion that what people say and write down and you pay for in the KS campaign... That it would have been enforced in some way. It wasn't, and seemingly isn't. You are right though, they learned how to sell shit to fanboys(me included) and turns out using KS is even more risky than buying a game off the shelf. You're sold a total illusion of transparency and inclusiveness. What you actually get, is permabanned when you try to defend your rights as a backer on the official forum. Again. Fuck Portalarium. Tickle me fanboi too. I got sucked into how cool kickstarter seemed. Fuck I got fooled into Greed Monger too. Ah well 2 out of 3 backings have failed I'll hold hopes for star citizen. A fool and his money are easily parted. I think I've learnt a lesson. Well 2 It's such a shame that such a cool idea as kickstarter has burnt the goodwill that is its very source of funding.
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Post by Housewife British on Jul 10, 2015 3:40:05 GMT
I to bought into the game from the beginning with RG fanboy hype, thinking it would be great. It wasn't until we started talking about introducing combat to the game that I started to see how ignorant and clueless most of the people within this game's community are, developers included.
As for them mentioning about the double agent thing, they've made a few remarks about it in the past, one of them is even in one of the videos, I forget which one though but I believe I brought it up before, most likely around when they said it. The developers have said more than once though that they have people within the community that we don't know about.
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Post by grimgryphon on Jul 10, 2015 5:37:40 GMT
But that's not what they learned over the years post-UO. They didn't learn to make better games from their respective companies, they learned how to SELL games and make lots of money. They learned that if you can sell someone a believable illusion, they will bathe in shit and insist that it's perfume. The weak-willed and the "I want to believe" crowd can't get past it. They'll support the illusion until the end. At least until the illusion wears off and then Portalarium will quickly see what the pack of rabid wolves that attacked us for not buying the illusion feels like nipping at their heels. Then you'll see what a real carebear stare looks like. To be fair, at least myself, watched the KS campaign and thought that it sounded great... What I didn't expect, was that a Development company could go back and change their promises or alter the language around what they said to mean something totally different and justify seriously compromising the original intent of the campaign. I was under some illusion that what people say and write down and you pay for in the KS campaign... That it would have been enforced in some way. It wasn't, and seemingly isn't. You are right though, they learned how to sell shit to fanboys(me included) and turns out using KS is even more risky than buying a game off the shelf. You're sold a total illusion of transparency and inclusiveness. What you actually get, is permabanned when you try to defend your rights as a backer on the official forum. Again. Fuck Portalarium. And that's what I'm saying. You're here. They're not. They're still trying to convince themselves its perfume.
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Post by kb on Jul 10, 2015 5:43:35 GMT
>He's a smart, thoughtful guy >smart >A: I often tell people who write to me asking for a new SWG or UO style game that for me that was TEN YEARS AGO. I had to move on from those designs and ideas quite a long time ago. I wouldn’t build something like that today, in many ways.(c) Raph Koster >I do think a modern UO would not succeed with freeform PvP. It might well have PvP in it, but the whole gankfest thing is definitely a thing of the past. (c)Raph Koster >smart Fuck you, Raph Koster! Touché Yet, I still think he has a lot of knowledge and great insight into MMO's that I don't think SotA's devs understand. Many of the things he's said before about why UO and SWG wouldn't work in today's gaming climate are based on his belief that the gaming community has changed dramatically since the time when UO came out. For example, I've seen presentations and blog posts where he talks about how, back then, internet access and PC ownership was not as common. Many of the people who played UO (and later SWG) were "more mature" and more tolerant of the hardships common to online communities. Some came from MUDs, others from BBSes, and all were a captive audience considering that, for awhile, UO was literally one of the only games of its type around (until EQ's success put real pressure on EA to trammelize the game). I don't think he necessarily thinks it's a good or bad thing that things have changed. Well, scratch that. I have seen him talk about how the whole "gankfest" stuff drove too many people (yet, I've seen him mention that Trammel was not an ideal solution and that there were other experiments with player policing of the problem that might have been a better solution). I just think he is sharing what he has observed with respect to the changing demographics (more entitlement-generation playing these games now, far wider spread access to internet and PC ownership, far wider array of games available for people to play... so devs are very fearful of people ragequitting because it's so easy for them to find another game to play). IDK... I don't mean to defend the guy. There's plenty he's posted that speaks to these issues, a lot that I don't agree with. I'm too tired to really get into it. Just saying, when I call him smart, I mean he is erudite and well read. He is a polymath and easily strikes me as one of the brainiest guys in the room when it comes to game design and all the component parts of creating virtual worlds/games. I might not agree with all he's done or said, or what he believes now, but that doesn't change the fact that A LOT of what UO and SWG did right came from him and his wife (a few dumb things too, but he's admitted, some of those design choices like the "in-game ecology" were just the result of spit-balled ideas and him and his wife never thought the UO team would seriously try to implement them).
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Post by kb on Jul 10, 2015 6:00:06 GMT
My skepticism was that Katrina is an alt for Starr. I don't disagree that he might be some kind of industry insider, though I've encountered plenty of blowhards who are great at speaking with authority, but are really just gamers who have zero clue what they're really talking about... So I'm not sure one way or the other. I just found it funny that Katrina is so adament on some of the things the Devs always are using for excuses and that she used the same somewhat unique word that star uses in multiple cases within 15 mins of star posting a reply with that very same unique word... But then again... Katrina Bekers(KB) and then Kuno B... WAIT WHO ARE YOU REALLY KUNO! Another possibility that all too often falls under the radar: Rick Holtrop (asst executive producer). My impression is that he's the hatchet man and does a lot of Starr's grunt work. It would make sense if he's one of the people behind one of these accounts. Still, I know it took several hours for me to get banned on Steam during an exchange between Katrina and I that went back and forth multiple times. It just doesn't fit the time frame that Katrina is a dev (or has close contact with them) if it took that long for my ban. As for who I really am... well, it's funny you point out the KB after Katrina's name. My signature on SotA forum used to include what I had hoped would be an in-game business motto of sorts " K.B. stands for quality" (written in German underneath too, but too fucking lazy to look up how it went atm)... with a link to the following "logo" (a rip off of a Munich brewery's design)... So much for stupid RP dreams. Now I can just smh @rg as he pats the mods like Koldar on the back for dealing with the nasty trolls in such an even-handed way. Even though I've given up on Port at this point, still feels pretty batman.jpg that they would ignore what was earnest interest and a desire to participate as nothing more than some of us as trolling. I didn't send them those fucking glasses because I was a troll, but I guess that's all they view any of us as now. Oh well, no surprise. Just sad to see they can't distinguish between true friend and foe. P.S. I'm Spartacus.... and Envy... and Batman.
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Post by Membrane_on_Vacation on Jul 10, 2015 6:09:34 GMT
Haha. Yeah, who is trolling now? I'm positive they are trolling us by giving those shithead mods awards
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Post by kb on Jul 10, 2015 6:32:07 GMT
Kb and grim. You guys seem similar to me. You're both technical guys and I assume you have been successful enough. Your confident in your own skin and I think you have families mortgages etc Grimmgryphon is way more successful than I am (and probably ever will be) based on what he's said about retiring early/etc. I'm some poor dumb fuck who had no business backing this shitfest at the level I did. I let my own interest in the arts and how patrons supported artists in the past get the better of me. The whole notion of KS appealed to me. Seemed like a way for the common man to act like the Medici's of yore and commission the creation of something great. Now that I see the result, and consider how wealthy RG is (and that he should be the one patronizing his own "art"), I feel pretty stupid now. I toiled for 5+ year as a Jr. High teacher, putting up with a disgustingly authoritarian public school system, asshole teenagers, and their fucked-in-the-head parents, before I finally got so sick of it that I walked away and went back to school for a M.A. in TESL (a degree I haven't used and probably never will). Currently, I get by, but am hardly thriving like Grimmie. When I see how arrogant and smug these devs are, how little regard they give to those of us who backed to the maximum of our means (and probably well beyond), just makes my blood boil now. There are so many other devs and games that deserved support. RG and Port are way out of line seeking crowd-funding considering how pricey everything has remained (and how many add-on items they continue to create and push in the item store). I honestly thought after the KS and initial funding period that the crazy house prices and add-on items would be mothballed for more cheap $5 cosmetic items like the skins seen in games like LoL and Heroes of the Storm. Sorry, ranting.... and way OT for what I meant to be a short response. Long day/night and sour mood. The bits of R19 hangout I saw really hammered home my feeling that.... ...and, unfortunately, I was/am one. To quote the sage, Katrina Bekers: *sighs*
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dodgy
Strong in the Force
Posts: 1,171
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Post by dodgy on Jul 10, 2015 7:07:42 GMT
I'm just gonna say
Assassin you can care bear stare me anytime.
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Post by templara on Jul 10, 2015 8:08:19 GMT
One would think, with the amount of money this guy has, he would want to make a game for the people, not another cash cow... that's what i would do if i was a millionaire. But that's not what they learned over the years post-UO. They didn't learn to make better games from their respective companies, they learned how to SELL games and make lots of money. They learned that if you can sell someone a believable illusion, they will bathe in shit and insist that it's perfume. The weak-willed and the "I want to believe" crowd can't get past it. They'll support the illusion until the end. At least until the illusion wears off and then Portalarium will quickly see what the pack of rabid wolves that attacked us for not buying the illusion feels like nipping at their heels. Then you'll see what a real carebear stare looks like.My sides.
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Post by templara on Jul 10, 2015 8:19:10 GMT
>He's a smart, thoughtful guy >smart >A: I often tell people who write to me asking for a new SWG or UO style game that for me that was TEN YEARS AGO. I had to move on from those designs and ideas quite a long time ago. I wouldn’t build something like that today, in many ways.(c) Raph Koster >I do think a modern UO would not succeed with freeform PvP. It might well have PvP in it, but the whole gankfest thing is definitely a thing of the past. (c)Raph Koster >smart Fuck you, Raph Koster! Touché Yet, I still think he has a lot of knowledge and great insight into MMO's that I don't think SotA's devs understand. Many of the things he's said before about why UO and SWG wouldn't work in today's gaming climate are based on his belief that the gaming community has changed dramatically since the time when UO came out. For example, I've seen presentations and blog posts where he talks about how, back then, internet access and PC ownership was not as common. Many of the people who played UO (and later SWG) were "more mature" and more tolerant of the hardships common to online communities. Some came from MUDs, others from BBSes, and all were a captive audience considering that, for awhile, UO was literally one of the only games of its type around (until EQ's success put real pressure on EA to trammelize the game). I don't think he necessarily thinks it's a good or bad thing that things have changed. Well, scratch that. I have seen him talk about how the whole "gankfest" stuff drove too many people (yet, I've seen him mention that Trammel was not an ideal solution and that there were other experiments with player policing of the problem that might have been a better solution). I just think he is sharing what he has observed with respect to the changing demographics (more entitlement-generation playing these games now, far wider spread access to internet and PC ownership, far wider array of games available for people to play... so devs are very fearful of people ragequitting because it's so easy for them to find another game to play). IDK... I don't mean to defend the guy. There's plenty he's posted that speaks to these issues, a lot that I don't agree with. I'm too tired to really get into it. Just saying, when I call him smart, I mean he is erudite and well read. He is a polymath and easily strikes me as one of the brainiest guys in the room when it comes to game design and all the component parts of creating virtual worlds/games. I might not agree with all he's done or said, or what he believes now, but that doesn't change the fact that A LOT of what UO and SWG did right came from him and his wife (a few dumb things too, but he's admitted, some of those design choices like the "in-game ecology" were just the result of spit-balled ideas and him and his wife never thought the UO team would seriously try to implement them). Ah well. No one's saying he's stupid, but he's still a huge . Anyway. The mood of the gaming community is everchanging. The success of a game depends on so many factors. I am sure, that many smart and erudite people would find 1001 reasons why Angry Birds or Flappy Bird can't succeed for example. Yet here we are. It is very easy to talk, very easy to rationalize a defeatist attitude. If we tried very hard, we could find hundreds of reasons as to why they shouldn't make WoW, or Flappy Bird, or whatever. It would all sound very convincing and true. Except that it wouldn't be true. I remeber this anecdote...where a wealthy man comes to a jeweller's and asks the carebear who owns it to facet a diamond for him. The carebear inspects the diamond and is like "Oh no! It's the famous **** diamond! I wouldn't dare to try and facet it!" "So what do we do?", asks the man? "Wait, I got an idea. Abraham, come here! This is Abraham, my apprentice. He will do it." The man leans towards the carebear and whispers "But he is just an apprentice! How can you let him facet such an expensive diamond? " And the carebear replies "Exactly. He doesn't know that it's an expensive and famous stone. He will do it."
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Post by Mordecai on Jul 10, 2015 13:13:54 GMT
Then you'll see what a real carebear stare looks like.
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Post by templara on Jul 10, 2015 13:34:30 GMT
Then you'll see what a real carebear stare looks like. 5 nights at Portalarium?
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Post by templara on Jul 10, 2015 13:35:13 GMT
I'm just gonna say Assassin you can care bear stare me anytime. do you mean what i think u mean?
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dodgy
Strong in the Force
Posts: 1,171
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Post by dodgy on Jul 10, 2015 16:09:35 GMT
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Post by kb on Jul 10, 2015 18:28:50 GMT
Ah well. No one's saying he's stupid, but he's still a huge . Anyway. The mood of the gaming community is everchanging. The success of a game depends on so many factors. I am sure, that many smart and erudite people would find 1001 reasons why Angry Birds or Flappy Bird can't succeed for example. Yet here we are. It is very easy to talk, very easy to rationalize a defeatist attitude. If we tried very hard, we could find hundreds of reasons as to why they shouldn't make WoW, or Flappy Bird, or whatever. It would all sound very convincing and true. Except that it wouldn't be true. Yeah, I hear what you're saying. It does seem like giving up before even trying. I think Raph has had a few tough years of soul-searching (after the failure of metaplace and a stint of unemployment), so I think he retreated into the ivory tower of his book learning for awhile to insulate himself from the challenges of designing innovative games. While it's still not really what I'm looking for in a game, I'm glad to see him consulting on Crowfall and easing his way back into the industry. I hope his recent setbacks give him a new perspective on things and that he ultimately helps to create something cool and amazing once again. Your thing about the diamond cutter is a good analogy too. Sadly, it normally takes youth and inexperience to allow people to try for the impossible (because they don't realize how crazy what they are trying to do really is).
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Post by templara on Jul 10, 2015 22:50:47 GMT
Ah well. No one's saying he's stupid, but he's still a huge . Anyway. The mood of the gaming community is everchanging. The success of a game depends on so many factors. I am sure, that many smart and erudite people would find 1001 reasons why Angry Birds or Flappy Bird can't succeed for example. Yet here we are. It is very easy to talk, very easy to rationalize a defeatist attitude. If we tried very hard, we could find hundreds of reasons as to why they shouldn't make WoW, or Flappy Bird, or whatever. It would all sound very convincing and true. Except that it wouldn't be true. Yeah, I hear what you're saying. It does seem like giving up before even trying. I think Raph has had a few tough years of soul-searching (after the failure of metaplace and a stint of unemployment), so I think he retreated into the ivory tower of his book learning for awhile to insulate himself from the challenges of designing innovative games. While it's still not really what I'm looking for in a game, I'm glad to see him consulting on Crowfall and easing his way back into the industry. I hope his recent setbacks give him a new perspective on things and that he ultimately helps to create something cool and amazing once again. Your thing about the diamond cutter is a good analogy too. Sadly, it normally takes youth and inexperience to allow people to try for the impossible (because they don't realize how crazy what they are trying to do really is). It's an interesting time we live in. Garriot and Starr are back in the industry...(erm, are they really, seeing how they are making yet another facebook game instead of a MMORPG?), Raph too, the other guys from Crowfall, some of them were on the teams that worked on UO, SWG and Shadowbane (and some stupid Wizard 101 or whatever, wtf is this). Actually after carefully observing what they're doing I can't help but notice how they all are horribly out of place. They're old, they haven't done any real game for a long time, and they are apparently doing stupid stuff. So clumsy. Chris Spears with his idiotic combat system for SotA, the Crowfall guys with their idiotic anime graphics, gunnea pig playable characters and so on... I wonder what will all this lead to. They have the experience, they have the knowledge (or at least they claim they do), but do they have the drive and the determination? -- Old men taking careful steps, can this possibly lead to any kind of breaktrough? Doubt it. For every one of those old guys this prolly is one last attempt to do something they used to do when they were younger. After that they better retire, lest they want to look pathetic.
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